Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the YA podcast. Lean in. As we dive into the practicals of life with Jesus as spirit filled young adults.
Hello, everyone. Welcome back.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: Hello.
[00:00:30] Speaker A: Another episode.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: This will be fun.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: Tom's with me today. You couldn't tell by his voice.
I hope you're all doing well. It's the week before conference.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: Are you excited?
[00:00:41] Speaker B: Yeah, it's gonna be fun.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: It's gonna be so fun.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: I'm getting enough sleep at the moment, so that's a positive sign.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: Yeah, that won't last.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Anyway, that's okay. It's kind of the fun of it, right? Yeah, like, just being at conference to get, like, wrecked by the Lord, and then, like, late night. Late night Macca's runs. I just remember, actually start with the story. Literally, nobody cares. But I just had a reminder of, like, do you guys remember when we were doing the Thursday night revival nights and they'd finished, like, super late? I remember going to the church street Maccas on a Thursday night, and there would just be lines and lines of cars. And I always used to think to myself, these people are probably so confused. Why? It's just suddenly, like, 11:00 at night on a Thursday, and there's just all these people coming to maccas, and it's like, yep. You'd, like, see a friend in the driveway, like, yeah, you're getting chicken nuggets. It's after a good revival night, and.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: Then you start going to different macas. Cause it was quicker.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: Yep. I mean, that's just you I'm here for.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Need those nags. Let's do it.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Anyway, so conference is gonna be amazing. I'm super excited. But that's not what we're talking about today.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: No, it's not.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: We're talking about something completely different, actually.
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: But a topic that I think is what we think is really important, especially in the conversation around the body of Christ, and that is spiritual covering. Dun dun dun.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: Sounds terrifying.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: I know.
I mean, let's start there, because for some people, it is a topic that can sound a little bit confronting and can sometimes have a bit of negative, I guess, like association or bad experiences attached to it. So why is that?
[00:02:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I think.
Well, I mean, to start with, one of the things is, you know, spiritual covering. We also associate with spiritual accountability and that word that, you know, we don't like.
But I think it's because we've had some negative experiences of humans being human and not necessarily living out the fullness of what this blessing was meant to be.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
And that's most things that we have bad experiences of that are actually supposed to be kingdom is actually not that it's ever been a bad thing in God's eyes, but that we've either used it wrongly, consciously or subconsciously, kind of put our little human flair on it and turned it into something it was never supposed to be.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: And that's, you know, Paul spends most of his time correcting church practice, and sometimes it is people just being ignorant and the culture of the world infiltrating the culture of the church, and that's just what it is. But he, his answer, anytime the church does something that's out of alignment with God's will is not to remove it from the church. It's to correct it and reinstitute the right process. And so when it comes to this, like, spiritual covering, we might have a lot of baggage if we grew up in the church, particularly if you didn't grow up in the church, you probably don't have. But if you went to youth ministry in the church, if you're a bit of an older young adult and you were saved, then you probably have some baggage that you're bringing to these words, leaders, those sorts of people. We've all got experiences, and I think one thing that we should probably do from the outset is just go, okay, I'm gonna set aside my experience, because my experience needs to be submissive to the word of God and to the order of the kingdom. And just because I haven't, that doesn't discount my experience. I can learn some things from that experience. I can learn some things from the flawed humans in my experience.
But it should ultimately point to a better picture of kingdom order. That should help you not just avoid something, but actually pursue the right thing and get closer to what God intended for that.
So when it comes to spiritual covering, we might have experiences of spiritual covering looking like control or looking like use of power or punishment, ambition and greed, using people to get ahead. These could be some of our experiences, and that's why we almost react to spiritual covering and why we run away from spiritual authority in the church. But that's not God's plan, and we need to submit those experiences back into the kingship of Jesus.
[00:05:11] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think, I mean, bit of a side note, but coming back to, I guess, one of the topics we love talking about, which is tension.
And I think, I mean, this is a really good example for anyone who is feeling that sense of, I don't know, when you hear these sorts of things, you go like, oh, I don't like that. Or I've had bad experiences in the past, my encouragement would be, you know, if it's something that we see in the Bible and it's a biblical concept of, but our experience doesn't align with that biblical concept, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Actually submit it to God and go, okay, God, this is a part of your plan. This is a part of your design for your church. So if I'm missing something here or if I've had a bad experience with this, I want you to show me what that's supposed to look like.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: Yeah, good.
[00:05:56] Speaker A: Because I think sometimes that's often where people struggle. And unfortunately, I feel like I see this a lot in young adults, not just around this topic in particular, but in other things, is they have true, genuine encounters with God. They know God, they love God, they love Jesus, they're truly saved by Jesus, but then they have experiences that don't align with the word of God, not because it's contradictory, but actually because it's, you know, humans being humans.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: And it's the church being flawed. And sometimes we can jump to the conclusion and go, well, that, you know, my experience of church was like that, and that's not what it's supposed to be like. So I'm just gonna leave the church.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it's the church's fault.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Instead of going, okay, I know, God, this is something you want for your church. I know that you institute order for a reason. I know you institute boundaries for a reason. I'm not seeing it the way that kingdom is supposed to look right now, but show me what kingdom looks like so I can be a conduit for that. Actually becoming a culture in my church, that's really good.
Yeah. Like, I even remember having a conversation with a young adult where she was feeling like she. I guess, like the Lord was showing her things about a particular culture, that she was like, I feel like the Lord's showing me I need to be like this in this particular environment. And she wasn't seeing that in her team yet. And it's like, well, that's okay. You need to stand on the revelation that God's showing you and be a conduit and be a vessel for God to be glorified through good culture. And even if you don't have the authority to particularly change anything, have the conversations you need to have, lovingly submit that to your leaders and say, hey, the Lord's showing me this, and I want to help produce this as a culture in our church, or produce this in a culture, in the environments that I'm in. But while they're on the journey too, don't throw out the things God's showing. You actually continue to go, okay, God, what does this look like for me today in ensuring this culture is shown or, like, ensuring that I can be a pure vessel for this being carried through.
And I know that the more we go along and the more that we honour what God's speaking to us about, the more we'll see that come to pass in our church body.
[00:08:02] Speaker B: Totally. And I think that's a good starting place of going. All right, let's allow God to redeem the things he needs to redeem and let's get a right picture of heaven so that as he redeems it, we have a vision of where we're going to. Yeah. So I guess that would be the setup for today is.
Let's. As best as we can, Kelsey, let's provide a picture for what spiritual covering, and let's just change the terms right now. Spiritual mother and fathering.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: Because that's really what spiritual covering is.
[00:08:36] Speaker B: In a covenant family.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:08:38] Speaker B: What does a mother and father do and what should that look like?
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean, I guess that's probably a good place to start. And I just want to say off the bat, I actually feel like this is something that Numa is well and truly on the journey on inhabiting the revelation of is spiritual motherhood and fatherhood.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: That's why we're talking about it.
[00:08:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think so. Like, I just want to say that because when I look at our leadership team and when I look at the people who, you know, even our location pastor here at city, Pastor Dave and Louise, you know, our global leadership team, like, when I look at those guys, I see spiritual mothers and fathers. When I see the guest ministers that we're bringing into the house, I see spiritual mothers and fathers. And I feel like I can be a daughter in this house.
So I say that to give praise to God because I love being in a house where this is something we're seeing start to come to pass already.
And, I mean, we'll talk about that a little bit more, maybe after we talk about some more, like, I guess, practical things. But spiritual covering is both on an individual level of who is your spiritual mother, who's your spiritual father, who are the people speaking to your life in.
[00:09:49] Speaker B: Another language maybe that you've probably more used to. Who's discipling you?
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Yeah, who's discipling you? Who are you accountable to? Who's on the journey with you.
But also there's other structures and I guess, like layers of governance and leadership that we have in place that are actually intended to be that same spiritual mothering and fathering. So, for example, for us at Numa, we have our global leadership team, which is made up of our fivefold, plus some other key significant voices from around our global team and around our global family.
We have a board. Praise the Lord for the board. We love the board. They're our, I guess, like, governance people. They're the ones making sure all our bills are paid and that we're keeping legal and all the fun stuff. We have elders. We love the elders because they are wise men and women of God who love our house and have done the journey. They've done the journey, they've done the hard yards. All of them have been in ministry and capacities in their lives. And most of them have actually been in this house for a really long time.
[00:10:52] Speaker B: Yeah, some of them have. This is the church that they were born into, so they've got skin in the game.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So they love this house. And so how does that work functionally? I mean, when any big decisions are made, our global leadership team and our senior pastors are going to the elders and saying, hey, what's the Lord speaking to you about? And also submitting to them and going, the Lord's speaking to us about this thing. Can you pray about that? Can you give us your wisdom? And they ask the hard questions and they treat our global leadership team like sons and daughters. And they say, okay, you know, maybe think about this, or maybe you're being a little bit too quick to jump in here and maybe think about this. And then in the same way, we have board meetings where those guys, and there's other committees and stuff as well, like financial advisory committees and all that sort of stuff, that their job is to bring the practical wisdom of, okay, if you do this, it will have this flow on effect with money, with staffing, you know, legalities of. It takes a lot to set up a church in San Francisco. It takes a lot to set up a church in Singapore or Bangkok because there's legalities that we need to ensure that we're honoring in these countries that we're, I guess, like going into to advance the kingdom.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: And a mother and father will be looking out for you to ensure that you don't misstep.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And something I love about our board is, like, if you meet our board members, they are men and women of God. Like, they are fiery ones and they love the spirit and they're truly spirit led. And I love like, you know, talking to like, I love Yakmi. She's one of the ladies on the board and she's like preaching the gospel in her workplace. She is a fiery woman of God and spirit led culture. Yeah. And so when you understand that culture and you understand that heart and that, I guess like desire to be spirit led, even in the practical decisions, they're asking the Holy Spirit and their question is always, okay, I know we're talking the nitty gritty practical right now, but how do we advance God's kingdom through these decisions? And how do we honor God's kingdom through these decisions? So that's the board, elders, executive or global leadership team. And then of course we're an ACC church, australian christian churches. That is the, I guess like governing body that we sit under as a church.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Connects us into a broader body.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And it means, you know, they're there to love us, they're there to help us in hard times, in challenging times. They're there to be that extra level of support and encouragement and they also provide, I guess some of the structures of, you know, what does it look like to be a pentecostal pastor? What does it look like to be a pentecostal church? How can we ensure that the leaders that we have representing us in each of our churches around Australia, not just NUMA but other churches, to actually embody the characteristics of a God fearing and God like men and women of God.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: Something that might be helpful if I just jump in here and maybe even provide.
So the reason I'm doing this is that I think sometimes we hear all these structures and we go, oh, that's a modern day structure of a church. That's not biblical. I actually want to just provide, I guess, the biblical mirror of the structures that you just explained. So we're very comfortable with someone like a timothy who's leading a church in Ephesus.
He would be the modern day equivalent of our senior pastor and then he had elders as well and he had deacons, which would be like the senior pastor. And then the deacons are like that ministry team, whether they volunteer or paid, that's that.
He then had spiritual covering by a broader oversight. Meaning Paul. Right. And Paul oversaw many different churches.
So that is like our, I guess even some, to some extent our board because he was concerned with the operational side of the church and making sure that it was operating according to Kingdom paradigm. But the end, he was providing an eldership of sorts. But it was even to the extent of, he had ownership of almost an ACC like movement where Timothy was one representative in that. And so there's this structure there, and even you go, oh, that's like just the start. It's like, well, no, it actually cascades down from there. We have a lot of reports from the first century where there was this paradigm of bishops that looked after regions and oversaw and provide spiritual oversight for the pastors and leaders of different regions and cities. So you have these awesome people like Polycarp and Ignatians of Antioch, these people that were alive, probably they were children when Jesus was alive, but then they grew up under the apostles, and they became bishops overseeing these churches. And then they would come together and submit to each other as they were overseeing churches. They would then provide oversight to each other. And so you have someone like an Ignatius of Antioch sending letters to Polycarp of Smyrna, who was a younger bishop, and he was providing a fathering relationship to him. So it's not a modern day thing. The structures in place are to provide some things that we potentially have to nowadays with the legal entities and all of that sort of thing. But I just guess I wanted to bring some clarity around. This is something that has happened from the day the church was birthed is these levels of influence and levels of mother and fathering has always happened.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think something else. I mean, you can literally open one Timothy, and in the greeting it says, this is from Paul. It says, to Timothy, my true child in the faith.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: Yeah, there you go.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: So it's like that language of families already coming through.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: My son, I'm your father.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: Paul was a spiritual father to Timothy, but now Timothy is leading his own, I guess, like part of the body of Christ, which means Timothy is also a father to others.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: So he's a son and a father at the same time.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, that's actually something really interesting is, you know, you could be a spiritual mother and a spiritual daughter at the same time, or you could be a spiritual father in some respects and spiritual son in other respects. And I think context is really important in that. So, I mean, I guess, like a really simple example is, I mean, for you guys as young adults, Tom and I are spiritual mother and father over you. Why? Because we've been appointed the ministry leadership in this season, and that'll be to.
[00:17:25] Speaker B: Different degrees for individuals. Like some, we get the privilege of being up close and personal with others. We'd love to, but we just don't. But there's still that delegated authority over the young adults of this community.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And so, I mean, I guess even within that, like, we have a level of accountability to you guys of what we do for the ministry to represent God's heart into those things and how we disciple you guys, whether that's up close and personal or if that's from a distance through the way we disciple our life, group leaders, blah blah blah, gatherings, etcetera. Yeah. What we're speaking into, what we're talking about on the podcast, like all of that is us trying to carry and doing our best to carry that mothers and fathers heart of, okay, God, like, what do you want for your children? And how can we love them like family and how can we honour them like family?
But at the same time, we are also spiritual sons and daughters to our location pastors. We are sons and daughters to the people who are discipling us in our worlds personally, other couples who disciple us as a married couple and a family.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Which you would hope that we are sons and daughters to them.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: Because we can only be a mother or a father to people that we have first learnt to be mothered and fathered.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: Like, we can't mother and father out of a orphan spirit.
[00:18:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: We first need to be that son and daughter.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, even, I guess beyond that as well, is we can only be mothers and fathers to the degree that we have understood the father's love for us and how we have been sons and daughters under our heavenly Father.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Because that's the ultimate spiritual covenant.
[00:19:03] Speaker A: Yeah. The way that we understand how we relate to father God and how we relate to him and how I can be a daughter under his leadership.
The revelation that I carry out of that is then the revelation I carry into the places and spaces I'm entrusted to be a spiritual mother. It's really good because if I'm trying to be a spiritual mother, but I'm functioning out of an orphan paradigm, then that's when I'm gonna be manipulative. That's when I'm gonna be punishment paradigm focused. That's when I'm gonna be selfishly pursuing my own ambitions because I haven't first had a revelation of what it means to be under the father's love.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: Yeah. So you're mothering out of lack in order to fulfill something that was meant to be fulfilled elsewhere because that should be fulfilled in receiving rather than trying to receive it from doing.
And so, yeah, my advice is if you're looking for a mother or father, looking for someone to disciple you, a surefire way to make sure that it's not going to be manipulative, not going to be controlling or power seeking or any of that, is that they're doing so out of their own receiving of love that they're not doing it from a place of lack in order to gain something.
Yeah, that's really good. You had a couple of. Couple of practicals, I guess. I think you had three. Three is a great number.
[00:20:24] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:20:24] Speaker B: Did you want to dive into the first one?
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Sure. I mean, this flows pretty easy from where we're already talking about the first one. I mean, we were really asking the question if now we know what that spiritual covering looks like, the question is, well, why do we need it?
What's God's heart for us being under spiritual covering?
And I think one of the main ones is order.
Yeah, that's good that God actually values order, but godly order is not the same as earthly order.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Even in that, it's like that order sometimes comes out like a hierarchy is like what we can see as a hierarchy, which sometimes we come away from, go, oh, that's. That's worldly. I don't want to have a hierarchy. And I think it's because the basis of the hierarchies is actually different. So in the world, hierarchy is seen as a hierarchy of value.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:21] Speaker B: If you are higher in the hierarchy, it means you have greater value.
That's a very worldly paradigm.
The hierarchy is not the issue, it's what the hierarchy is based on.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: So then when we come into the church and come into kingdom order, like you're talking about, what's the order for this? The hierarchy or the structure is now not based on value because we're all the same value. Genesis 126, we're made in the image of God. That's where we get our value from. So we're all of equal values. So that leveling or the structure needs to be based on something else. And simply put, it's based on responsibility.
[00:21:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And God given appointment.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: God given appointment. Exactly. What is the responsibilities that's being delegated to you on earth and responsibilities delegated to you by goddess, because that's what you're accountable for, is what you're responsible over. It's the same thing of, we're back in Genesis 126, Adam and Eve were given authority. They were given responsibility over the animals and over the garden. And so that's what they were accountable to. They weren't of greater value than anyone else, but that was the area in which they had greater authority. Than anyone else.
[00:22:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And, I mean, maybe we can use an example of. Of something that's happened really recently in our, I guess, like family, our church family, to illustrate this point. So when Rich Gordon was here, I feel like something really significant that happened through his ministry was actually almost like a redelegation, that we don't look to a man on a platform, but we actually look to one another and the kingdom in one another to receive from God and to see God glorified.
But so. And I mean, a really simple example of how that happens. So, in one of the sessions that rich was ministering, I think he did it on Sunday, but he also did it during the prophetic summit.
I mean, not even once, multiple times. I would say almost like 90% in the ministry he did that day was actually through other people. And there was this moment right at the end that he, I guess, Washington, getting representatives from the congregation and people that we would look to and just go like, oh, you know, they're a congregation member. They're not a leader, they're not a pastor. They're not over any ministry areas.
They're not, quote unquote, key people in our church or core people on the team or anything like that. Like, they're just men and women of God who love our family, who are a part of our family. He was getting them up and saying, you share your testimony, and then you release what God's doing in your life over people. And then people were receiving from God. So in that moment, there was no voice that was more valuable.
[00:24:06] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: Because it wasn't that rich's ministry or Rich's voice was more powerful in that moment, because he was placing value on individuals that even sometimes we can look to and go, oh, I don't know if they really have anything to share.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: We look with an earthly mindset.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Whereas he was going, God's on you right now. Come and share because your voice is valuable, and what God's speaking to you about is valuable. But at the same time, Rich was still the spiritual covering in that room.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: In that moment, he was the responsible overseer. Yes.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: And so he was still responsible for, you know, making sure that person was sharing something that was biblical, making sure that person didn't pray for ten minutes when they were only given two minutes, like things like that that were actually. He was still placing the boundaries on that moment as the spiritual covering in that room to make sure there was order and to make sure God was actually glorified through what was happening. And it wasn't just chaos yeah. Does that make sense?
[00:24:59] Speaker B: 100%.
[00:25:00] Speaker A: Is that a good example?
[00:25:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Cause he's the ultimate responsibility in that room. And that's what the hierarchy is based on, is not value. It's based on responsibility. And who is accountable for this moment right now? And that is why in James three, it says that you shouldn't desire to be a teacher because they're gonna be held to greater account. Why? Because they have a greater level of responsibility over certain things. So you're only held accountable for what you're responsible for. I'm not going to hold you accountable for something that you were never asked or told to do or you never had the authority to do. And so God's not going to like, be like, why didn't you do that thing? And you're like, you never told me or I never even had the gifting. I never was respons. He's like, no, no. What did you do with what I place in your hand? And that's spiritual covering. You've been placed something in your hand, people, resource, gifting, et cetera. And that's the level of the hierarchy is based on is responsibility.
[00:25:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's. I mean, that scripture's probably one of the most terrifying as a leader.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: I'm a leader as a mother or father.
[00:26:02] Speaker A: Right. Like, there's an acknowledgement through the Bible that teachers or leaders will be held to a higher account for what there.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: Is to have a greater level of responsibility.
[00:26:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's like, well, of course, if I'm the one getting up on platform, leading a moment or preaching or teaching, you better hope I'm gonna be held to account for what I say. Because if I get up and say something that's not biblical, I'm leading 3400 people astray.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like a shepherd leading the flock astray. Right.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:32] Speaker B: It's the shepherd's fault, not the sheep.
[00:26:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I think, I mean, it's a sobering passage, and I don't think it's a passage that we should read and feel fearful.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: No.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: And if you feel called to ministry, like, don't read that and go, oh, gosh, like, I don't want to be held to account. So I'm just gonna go do something else, like trust that God will have you in the places and spaces that you need to be for where you're at. Also remembering God will never give you things you cannot handle. So God's not suddenly gonna appoint you, like, senior pastor if you've never led a life group before.
Because God's graceful like that.
[00:27:05] Speaker B: There's development.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:07] Speaker B: It's just like, you're not gonna give a baby what you would give an 18 year old.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: Yeah. But at the same time, like, if you're leading a life group right now, you're gonna be held account for the way you lead that life group. If you are discipling someone right now, you're gonna be held accountable to how you disciple them.
[00:27:21] Speaker B: And that's this. And you're held to account on earth by your spiritual mothers and fathers. So for a life group leader, that might be us, but then also you're held account ultimately to God.
[00:27:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think for me, what that does for me in my heart is. Goes, okay, well, if I fear goddess, I will not use my leadership for selfish ambition. Cause I know one day I'm gonna have to stand before God and give an account for the way that I stewarded that season of my life.
[00:27:50] Speaker B: And then we're right back in the gospels that leadership is now serving people and laying down my life for them.
[00:27:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: That greater responsibility, greater authority is actually just a greater death.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And so the reason we bring this up is, I hope it's encouraging to you guys that you would be comforted in that as sons and daughters of Numa church and in whatever places and spaces you find yourself in, that if you're under leaders who fear God, their heart will be to strive for purity in their leadership. And that's not to say that everyone's always going to be perfect. But if we're saying we want purity.
[00:28:25] Speaker B: In the bride, purity's not perfection, though.
[00:28:27] Speaker A: No, purity isn't perfection. Purity is heart motivation.
And yeah, we're going to make mistakes. We're going to not always make the best call.
If daily we're submitting before God and having a posture in our hearts of God, I want to do my best to glorify you today. And I want to do my best to have a pure heart in the way that I lead.
Show me how to do that then.
Yeah. Like, I hope that's something that comforts you guys as young adults, knowing that.
Yeah. Like, if your leaders feel like, I don't know, like, I feel like I can't even put it into words, like.
[00:29:04] Speaker B: Very simple way to put it is simply that knowing that our leaders fear God and are responsible for that, it produces an ease of submission in us as sons and daughters. Because we are happy to submit, because we understand that we're ultimately not submitting to them. We're actually ultimately submitting to God. Because if they are in submission, yeah. If our mothers and fathers in the faith are submitted wholeheartedly to goddess, it means our submission to them is ultimately submission to God.
[00:29:31] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: And so it should bolster our confidence and not make us fearful of submission because submission is not letting go of our mind, it's not letting go of our brain, but it is a acknowledgement of, you have a responsibility over this area. So I'm going to defer to you and say, hey, I think this, but what do you think?
[00:29:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:50] Speaker B: So that's that order. But that order then produces the second thing that we're going to talk about.
[00:29:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:55] Speaker B: Which is safety, which I think is a very key point when we're talking about spiritual authority or spiritual mothers and fathers is because I think it's probably the main reason people shy away from this topic is because it hasn't always produced safety in them.
[00:30:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: It's done the opposite.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: The simplest way I would put safety, when we're talking about spiritual covering, is freedom within the boundaries of, yeah, that's good. And I feel like the easiest example to look to, first and foremost is genesis, because God, a loving father, created Adam and Eve and said, work in the garden, enjoy the garden, eat everything you want except the tree of good and evil.
He put a boundary in place and said, go for your life, have all the freedom you want within that boundary.
[00:30:48] Speaker B: Knowing that if they overstep that boundary, it wasn't a good thing.
[00:30:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, there was an acknowledgement that if you overstep the boundary, you're now coming out of the protection, out of the covering that God had actually provided them.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: That's really good.
[00:31:04] Speaker A: And that had very unfortunate consequences for them.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: So it produces safety because our spiritual covering, our spiritual mothers and fathers should provide boundaries, which in turn actually is protection.
And so protection provides us safety and should lead to a greater level of freedom.
[00:31:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: Because we're not worried about, oh, if I step out here and do the wrong thing, then it's gonna come back on this or hurt someone or da da. Like, we're not scared of the ramifications because our mothers and fathers have already provided the protection and already provided the boundary.
[00:31:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
I'm trying to think of, I guess, like good example. There's so many that are going through my head.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: The easy one is, I guess, and I think this is an easy, if you think to think about if you've been in our house for a while, I think the context of prophecy is a good one.
We're coming after Paul in saying that we would love everyone to prophesy, but there is a safety that that happens. And so say, if we were going to go and deliver a prophetic word to a public forum on a platform that's outside our domain, that's outside our responsibility.
So we're going to go to the person who is the spiritual covering in that space. Pastor Dave, Pastor Raf, you know, Pastor Ali, someone in that space that is going to be the spiritual covering, and we're going to submit it to them and say, hey, this is what I feel like I need to deliver in this space prophetically.
And them being the spiritual mothers and fathers have the right to say, yes, no, this way, that way. Here's the boundaries. Yes, deliver it, but please do it this way. And consider this, the covering, the oversight, meaning they're going to see things that we haven't seen in order to protect us from things we never knew we needed protection from. And so then when we do step out and maybe take a risk, there is not just a greater safety for those people that are receiving from our ministry, but there's a greater safety for us as a son and daughter. Because I know then that I'm not stepping out on my own decision. I'm stepping out with the backing of a spiritual mother or a father, and I can wholeheartedly step into what God's calling me to do.
And if the spiritual mother and father says, hey, no, I don't think that's. For now, I might be upset, I might be frustrated, I might be annoyed, I might disagree.
But it's within the order of God, and I need to realize, oh, no, they're doing it for my safety and for others safety. So I'm gonna say, okay, I disagree, but I'm gonna do that.
[00:33:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that point you made about them seeing things that you might not see, I feel like that's really important.
[00:33:53] Speaker B: It's a big thing.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: Cause, I mean, again, in Genesis, God said, don't eat of the tree and good and evil.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: And they could ask why?
[00:34:00] Speaker A: Because God could see something that they couldn't.
[00:34:02] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:34:03] Speaker A: And then they disobeyed, and they faced the consequences of what they should have trusted their heavenly father to protect them from.
And so, in the same way, maybe, you know, you're sitting with someone and you feel like the Lord's revealed something to you, and you're sitting with the person that's discipling you or whatever, and you're saying, God showed me this, and he showed me, I'm going to minister to the nations and they say, hey, that's awesome. But I actually don't think that words for right now. I actually think your next best step is to do this. Or maybe you need to go and pray about this, or maybe, you know, it can feel discouraging in a moment. But if you trust that person and their relationship with God and their wisdom from God, you'll take that on board, as maybe this person's seeing something I'm not seeing yet.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: You're actually protecting their dream for the future.
[00:34:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, something I love about, I guess, getting to disciple young women is I look at someone and I'm like, dang, I can see the call of God on your life. I can see, like, I can see things I'm not seeing in the natural. Yeah. But I can see it in the spiritual.
And if you come to me and say that you feel like the Lord's calling you to be a prophet to the nations, I'm like, yes, and amen. I've probably already seen that over your life because I love you and I care about you and I see those things in your life.
[00:35:20] Speaker B: But.
[00:35:21] Speaker A: But I'm. You're thinking about Stephen F. I'm thinking about step a and b. Yeah.
[00:35:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:26] Speaker A: Because I know that there's a journey that you need to go on in order to be prepared and actually allow the Lord to do things in your heart so that you're ready to take on that mantle one day.
And this is why coming to a leader or coming to someone and saying, God said this, so I'm doing it, and there's no discussion is so unsafe. And you miss the blessing of spiritual covering because you're not allowing anyone to speak into those decisions.
[00:35:54] Speaker B: And I think it's not gonna be if we have a spiritual mother and father that's wholly loving us from that place. It's not gonna be out of a place of control that they're saying, no, no, no, don't do that. It's often a yes, but not now, or a yes, but in this way, or a yes, but in this context or a yes, but have you considered. It's. It's not going to be a controlling conversation, but as soon as you go, God said, you're now removing any covering from you. You're moving any protection from you, which means it's all on you.
And that's not a. That's not the way that the Lord intended it to be. It's meant to be done in family, right is your risk and your destiny and your out. Stepping out in faith is, as a spiritual father, my stepping out in faith as well to protect you. And so we remove the, like you said, the blessing of safety and the blessing of.
We probably even to some extent, shortcut our destiny and remove some of the blessing of our destiny by doing that, because we miss things that our spiritual mothers and fathers were entrusted to see for us.
And to think that, I mean, the word says we see in part and prophesy in part. To think that when you say God said you've seen, and he said all things to you is a bit of an arrogance, to be honest.
[00:37:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And, I mean, that's not to say that, like, you could submit something to your spiritual mothers and fathers, like, you feel totally, like, 100% sold out on, and you submit it to them and they go, hey, that's awesome. We're really, you know, pumped for you about that. But maybe we're not sure about timing or maybe we're not sure about this and maybe go away and pray about.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: These things or God's spoken to them about a specific part in that that you haven't seen yet.
[00:37:44] Speaker A: Yeah, but, I mean, the point I'm more trying to make is they could bring all of those different elements of wisdom, and you go away and you're still like, nope. God's 100% said, and even though you may have disagreed with what they've said, you actually are now, you're still stepping out on the confidence of the spiritual covering that you've had. If you've genuinely, you know in your heart that you're like, I know. I've submitted everything that they've said to me in prayer, and I still feel like the Lord's saying, 100%, I need to do this. You're still stepping out on the confidence of that spiritual covering because you've allowed people to speak into it, and you've allowed, I guess, God to refine that decision through those different aspects of wisdom that maybe you hadn't considered yet, but he's still asking you to step out and take that risk because your spiritual mothers and fathers aren't always gonna know as well.
And so it's more about the honor for their wisdom and the honor for their perspective. It doesn't mean that if your spiritual mother and father say no, that that's a be all and end all. Like, if the Lord's asking you to do something, you need to step out in faith on that, but do it first through the submission to spiritual mother's prayers so that, you know, cause a good spiritual mother and father, if you come to them and go, I've weighed everything you've said, and I still feel like it's a yes from God. They'll be like, okay, now we're fully backing 100% that decision you made, and.
[00:39:09] Speaker B: If it stuffs up, they're not gonna be like, I told you so. Yeah, they're actually gonna be like, all right, that's all good. We did the process. We did what we thought we needed to do. Like, you submitted me and stuffed up. Let's keep going.
[00:39:21] Speaker A: And it's like, there's been times in my life, I mean, both me as a daughter, but also me as a spiritual mother, where people have come to me and said stuff, and I've maybe not fully agreed, and they've still decided to do it. And I'm like, okay, I'm 100% backing you. And it goes, awesome. And I'm like, wow, praise the Lord. That they still stepped out in faith because I did not see that. And now they're flourishing. There's other times that they step out, and I'm like, okay, I'm backing you 100%, and it fails. And I'm like, that's okay. Cause I'm here to help pick up the pieces now that it's falling apart.
[00:39:51] Speaker B: And that's the part of spiritual covering, I think that it's like, okay, when we do what we feel is in the Lord, even if our spiritual mother or father said no, then it's not. We aren't doing it outside of covering because we've already submitted it. And the covering now becomes, I'm going to catch you if you fall.
And the covering also becomes, I'm going to be there to back you on it now. And I think that's the safety element, right? The safety element is, as long as I'm always going to submit to a spiritual mother or father, I'm always gonna have someone to catch me.
[00:40:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's something I even remember Pastor Dave said to me the very first time that I preached at city. I remember he, like, pulled me aside beforehand, he gave me, like, a big hug, and he was like, you're gonna do amazing. I'm so pumped. You're gonna preach your way to God. It's gonna be awesome. And he said to me, he's like, you are a daughter in this house. Therefore, you cannot fail.
[00:40:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Truth.
[00:40:42] Speaker A: And that stuck with me beyond that moment. But I remember that gave me so much confidence in just knowing, even if I got up there and completely flopped and just preached the most awful word, like, you know, nobody gets saved. No one's carrying the Lord. Everyone's like, what the heck is going on? And I get down and in my natural, I feel like I've really failed. I have a spiritual father there ready to pick me up and to say, yeah, that wasn't your best work. But you have not failed, because you are under spiritual covering. You are loved in this house. You know, I'm championing you. I'm backing you, I'm encouraging you. And, you know, that's not the be all and end all, because you're still called to preach. You're still called to minister, like, blah, blah, blah.
You can't fail when you're under spiritual comfort.
[00:41:27] Speaker B: That's the communication of value. No matter what you do right now, you are valued because you're a daughter.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: But if you step outside of that and you're no longer a daughter and you act like an orphan, it's like that's not there anymore.
[00:41:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:43] Speaker B: Cool. That's for safety.
[00:41:44] Speaker A: Yeah. I guess that leads us pretty easy to our last point, which is accountability.
[00:41:48] Speaker B: What should that actually look like, Kels?
[00:41:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
Accountability should not just be rebuke and correction.
[00:41:56] Speaker B: It's not just punishment.
[00:41:57] Speaker A: It should also be encouragement.
[00:41:59] Speaker B: That's good.
[00:42:00] Speaker A: The best people you can have around you to give you accountability will be the ones that not just correct you when you do something wrong or call you out when you're doing something that's out of alignment with the word of God. But they will actually encourage you towards the man or woman of God that you are called to be, because they see in the spirit the things that maybe you don't see yet.
[00:42:22] Speaker B: Yeah. It's the truth. And I think it's like, or even they're the ones. You've seen it and you're not acting upon it, and they're the ones going, hey, remember that word that the Lord revealed to you and asked you to take a step out on XYZ? What are you doing about that? That's accountability. Like, it's. It's the, hey, God said that to you? What are you doing about that? Hey, God sowed that seed in your heart. What are you doing to water it? Yeah, what do I. What do you need me to do to help you in that? And it's not just keeping accountable to go, oh, you misstepped. Don't do that. Here's a consequence. It's, hey, no, no, no. There's more for God, and there's more in God, and you've. He's revealed something to you, how are you stewarding it? It's those types of conversations that a mother will have and a father will have because they're looking ahead going, hey, if you don't do this now, when you're 18, when you're 20, when you're, that's the mother and father in them.
[00:43:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, I guess again, you can see this on the micro level of you and the people that are in your world discipling you one on one. But even like as a community, like Thomas and I are so committed to seeking out the heart of God for our young adult community.
And what that looks like is, I mean, you can be assured we're interceding for you, we're praying for you. And so when we're bringing words, whether that's rebuke, whether that's correction, or if it is encouragement, it's us seeing the things or like the obstacles that are in the way of us actually being the body that God's asking us to be, or being the young adult community that God's asking us to be. So, you know, when it comes around to, and this is why we love our young adult gatherings, our all in gatherings we do on a Wednesday night, that's really our opportunity. Aside from life group and the podcast, that's our opportunity to speak into the things. We feel like God's stirring our heart for our young adult community.
And so you'll probably notice sometimes, like, they're going to be pretty challenging words or even if you, if you're at young adults retreat last year, like, we hit on the stuff that we felt like was really relevant for our young adult community because we, it's a level of us holding you guys accountable and going, hey, this is actually a thing we can do better in like, you know, we think we can do better in serving our body, or we think we can do better in speaking lovingly towards one another or whatever the thing is.
But at the same time, we're also stirring you guys to be the people and the men and women of God that he's calling you to be. So we're doing our best to call out the gold as well and to encourage you guys and just stir you towards what we're prophetically seeing in God. And it's the same for the people that you're sitting having coffee with one on one, that they know the stuff that's going on in your life. And I mean, this is another reason we need to be willing to be transparent and vulnerable with people is the best way they will be able to stir you towards the things of God is if you're honest enough to go, hey, I really stuffed up here, and I'm really sorry about that. And I think, I mean, 90% of the awkward confrontation of being held accountable and correction is actually removed if we're first taking the step of being vulnerable and honest. Because if I come before, you know, someone who's pasturing me or discipling me, and I go, hey, I'm like, I'm really struggling here, or I really stuffed up here, they almost don't even need to rebuke me because I've already felt the conviction of the Lord and I'm already being transparent to them that then they're going, thank you so much for being honest about that. And you know what? From here, we can do this and this and this to make sure that doesn't happen again so that you can continue to run towards the woman of God that he's calling you to be. And then it's just encouragement, encouragement, encouragement. Exactly. They're going, okay, now that you've acknowledged that, let's go. Like, let's go beyond that. Let's actually overcome that and continue to pursue the things that God's actually got on your life.
[00:46:17] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:46:18] Speaker A: Whereas if you're sitting down with someone and they're, quote unquote, holding you accountable to something, and they've got to sit there and go, hey, I heard that this thing happened, and what's the deal with that? And they're trying to pull it out of you. That's why it can sometimes feel condemning, because there's probably shame attached to it in our own hearts that we don't want to be upfront and we don't want to be held accountable to those things that then it feels awkward when someone's trying to.
[00:46:42] Speaker B: But the reason for that is primarily because we're actually not a son or daughter.
[00:46:46] Speaker A: Yeah. It all comes back to what we were talking about in the beginning, because.
[00:46:51] Speaker B: If we are trying to hide things from people, it's because we have attached our identity to the action that has happened. Yeah, but if we understand we're sons and daughters, when we share something that went wrong or we share something that we've gone wrong in, it's a mother father's job of like, yeah, you stuffed up. What are we gonna do about it? Fantastic. But it's not a value statement, right? You stuffed up is not a. You are a stuff up. Like, it's not a value statement. And I think, first, let's get that right. Of my value has nothing to do with what I do.
[00:47:29] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:47:30] Speaker B: My value is that I am a son of God. I'm a daughter of God. And so when I come to a mother and father in the faith, it is not a conversation about my value.
It is a conversation about, hey, there's more in God. And that's, I would sum up the job of a mother or father in the faith is to consistently and frequently be telling the son or daughter, there is more in God. Hey, there's more in God in that area of your life that you're not seeing because of x, y, z. Hey, there's more in God, in your destiny, because you're not seeing x, y, and z. Hey, you know what God said to you? There's more because you haven't seen boom, boom, boom. And that's the difference. But when we attach our value to that, it. That's when it gets distorted. Whether the mother or father attaches their value or the son or daughter attaches their value, that's when distortion happens, because our value doesn't come from the right place.
[00:48:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:22] Speaker B: Wow.
I think I want to pray for people before we finish.
[00:48:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And, I mean, we could go even more practical from here. And I know probably one of the questions we're gonna get in the Q and a for the end of the season is, how do I find a good spiritual mother or father? But maybe we can save that and talk about it in the Q and a. Quickfire.
[00:48:42] Speaker B: Can I just go like, quickfire?
[00:48:44] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:48:45] Speaker B: Look at someone that has fruit that you want and chase them.
[00:48:48] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:48:49] Speaker B: That's like, you see someone. You're like, that area of your life I want to learn from. And you are the one that goes, let's get coffee. And they shouldn't have to chase you. And you become the one that learns. And, hey, like, pray to God. Like, stand in church on Sunday and go, lord, can you reveal someone that has this fruit, and he will show you someone that you might not even thought about? Don't even necessarily have to look to pastors. Like, obviously, pastors and leaders are there for a reason, but some of the best spiritual fathers in my life, I've never sat down for a coffee with. But every single Sunday, they come and say, hey, I was praying for you this week, and this is what the Lord says, and I want to encourage you in this, this, this, and you need to push forward in that. And I have a five minute conversation with one of the. I remember I was chatting to him last night. Five minute conversation. He's not a life group leader in my life. He's not a pastor, he's a congregation member, but he's done the journey. And every time he sees me, he has a five minute conversation with me and I feel like I've just been fathered in that five minute conversation. So don't, you don't have to look for this massive thing.
[00:49:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And I would say, yeah, be diligently seeking those things out and ask the Lord to reveal the people to you that he's leading you to.
But also in the times where you maybe aren't as clear on that, glean from the spiritual covering that is structurally appointed to you life groups. Yeah. Like, and I think really the main thing for that is actually having your heart open to receive a verse recovering. If you rock up at life group every week and you go, oh, they're just my life group leader, it's just whatever, they're just hosting and they just ask a few questions, you're not going to get to benefit from their spiritual covering over you.
[00:50:28] Speaker B: You first have to be a son and daughter.
[00:50:30] Speaker A: Yeah. So glean off them. Have your heart open to them. When you come on a Sunday and you're receiving of the word, glean off that. Receive of that spiritual covering in that moment that you're not just sitting back going, oh, it's just someone bringing the word again. Or, you know, I like when this person brings the word, but when that person brings a word, my heart's closed off. Cause I don't really care about what they have to say.
Have your heart open to every moment to glean off the spiritual covering that God has already appointed in this house.
[00:50:56] Speaker B: You'd be surprised.
[00:50:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And listen to the YA podcast genuinely, because like, we acknowledge that we can't sit down and have these conversations one on one with each and every one of you.
[00:51:08] Speaker B: But we're trying to do that.
[00:51:09] Speaker A: That's part of the reason why we did this, is to actually create a resource to equip you guys and to bring us more into alignment with what we feel like God's doing in our community. Even though we can't be sitting down every week having coffee with you or we can't have a young adult service every week. So again, have your heart open to what we're talking about and glean off it. And actually, when you finish an episode, take a moment to go, God, like, what do you actually want me to do out of it?
[00:51:33] Speaker B: It's really good.
[00:51:34] Speaker A: Or journal off it, or read the scriptures we're talking about, talk to someone about like, have you listened to this episode this week? And what did you feel about this or whatever, ask questions, do all the things, because that's a part of, I guess, like getting to clean off that covering as well.
[00:51:51] Speaker B: So spiritual family is what the Lord's building. That means that there's mothers and fathers. It's not a differentiation of higher value and lower value. It's just a different level of responsibility that we're given. We can be sons of and fathers at the same time in different contexts, brings order, brings safety, and it brings accountability to the body, which should actually bring greater levels of advancing God's kingdom.
[00:52:15] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:52:15] Speaker B: Amen. I'm gonna pray.
[00:52:17] Speaker A: Do it.
[00:52:18] Speaker B: I thank you, Father, for the gift of mothers and fathers in our life, both natural and spiritual. I pray, Lord, that as we've been speaking today and even rambling at times, Father, I pray that youre Holy Spirit, that you have spoken through this to people. I pray you have redeemed some people's mindsets, Lord, of what they thought this was, that you've redeemed the experiences that they've had.
You've provided a greater vision of heavenly family, Father, so that they have something to strive towards and to work towards. Lord, I pray that you've opened people's hearts, that you've provided heavenly insight, that you've shown them kingdom. And I pray, Lord, that they feel as though today we haven't provided a sense of control or a sense of diminishing anything, Lord. But I pray, Lord, that this podcast has simply been us going, guys, there's more in God. There is more in God. So, Lord, I pray that you would show them what that more is in this conversation. In Jesus name. Amen.
[00:53:23] Speaker A: Amen. Awesome.
[00:53:25] Speaker B: We love you.
[00:53:25] Speaker A: Love you, boy. Boyden.
