Discipleship Conversations: Wholistic Discipleship

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the YA Podcast. [00:00:05] Speaker B: Lean in as we dive into the practicals of life with Jesus as spirit filled young adults. Well, welcome back to the YA Podcast. We're so excited to be back with you season five and to be hosting the most incredible people that have been sharing such awesome testimonies and stories of their life. And I'm very excited to be joined here by a dear friend of mine, Samuel Yu. Why don't you say hello? Why don't you introduce yourself who you are, what you do. [00:00:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you for such a warm welcome. Yes, I'm Sam. I am the creative pastor here at the city location, looking after worship and production teams. So hit me up if you want to join. Let's just get that plug in there. Yeah, fair enough. But yeah, kind of grew up in this church. Well, from when I was about, like 11 or 12, I first started attending, had my off season with the Lord in between, then came back in around 20, 15, 16. [00:01:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:20] Speaker A: And just seeing the Lord just come through in so many ways, my season here. Yeah. It's a very brief bit about me. Didn't think I'd end up here in ministry or working at church, but the Lord has his way, so. Yeah. [00:01:35] Speaker B: And we're so grateful that he has had his way and is. And you've been faithfully serving. Are you. Is this your seventh year and stuff? [00:01:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I've done seven and a half years now. [00:01:43] Speaker B: Crazy. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So I've got my long service leave, so I'm, I'm chilling. [00:01:48] Speaker B: I've been, I'm so thankful that you're like in our. Obviously you're leading in the creative space, but also in the young adult space because you're someone that is honestly now like one of my longest friends in new movies. Obviously people come and go all the time, but I'm so glad for you and Leticia and how faithful you've been. [00:02:07] Speaker A: And I mean, I don't know if any of the viewers know or care, but Jess was on our bridal party. [00:02:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:13] Speaker A: And so, yeah, it's been, it's been an awesome ride, actually. Just made our cake as well. I did do that. She helped us. She helped you helped a lot. Dang. I don't know. We would have been able to do it without you. [00:02:26] Speaker B: If anyone's getting married and you want a bridesmaid. I'm kidding. No, I love it. It was so fun. Like, I loved, like, not just doing ministry stuff with you guys, but actually doing real life and. [00:02:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And even back in the day, me, Leticia, my wife And Jess used to lead young adults uni life groups as well. So, like, man, back in the day. That was five years ago, before COVID or something. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Yeah, we were leading through Covid. So, yeah, it was before COVID that we started probably 20, 19 or so. [00:02:55] Speaker A: And now look at you. Look at us now, the whole joint. Let's go. This is awesome. [00:03:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Anyway, you guys are probably bored, just us yapping about our lives, so let's get into the meat of the podcast. But so, as you guys know, we've been interviewing some of our pastors and leaders about their journey of discipleship. And I love this because there's a lot of teaching out there, and even as a church, we've been doing a lot of teaching, a lot of sermons on what is discipleship. And you can listen to many podcasts and read many books about it, but the only place you're going to get someone else's personal story and testimony is if you know them. And we want to create this space for you to get to know some of our leaders and actually learn from their testimony. And because testimonies can prophesy life and. And the things that Sam has learned, I feel like you guys are really going to receive from and be blessed by. So, Sam, I'll ask you this question. [00:03:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:47] Speaker B: How has your life been transformed through discipleship? [00:03:52] Speaker A: Man, it's. It's almost a really hard question to answer fully because, I mean, my whole life, you've been discipled in some way or another. Like, it's cheesy to say, but, like, I would not be here today without the people who have sewn into my life or without the experiences that I've had. I. I have no idea. Like, you know, it takes a village to raise a child, and in the same way it takes to raise anybody, like, it takes a whole community of people. I mean, I've grown through a couple of different churches. Well, actually, like, so when my childhood, my mom was a Christian at the time, but my dad wasn't. I. I mean, I was a baby, so I don't really remember the details, but my dad was a Buddhist and then basically atheist. And then when I was about seven or eight, he turned. He became a Christian. [00:04:50] Speaker B: Wow. [00:04:51] Speaker A: And my mom had been praying for him for, I don't know, at that point, maybe 12, 13 years or something. Yeah. It's an incredible story, actually. [00:04:57] Speaker B: That's amazing. [00:04:59] Speaker A: And so it was grow. Yeah. So grew up in a partially Christian household. My dad wasn't, like, fully opposed to Christian ideals or anything like that. But, you know, dad was working a lot, so Mum would take care of me. And so, you know, she would teach me songs that she made up about, like, scripture. I still remember some of them. And that's like, my mom's not a great singer or anything like that. But, like, genuinely, some of the precious. Some of the Bible verses that I know off by heart is because my mom taught me a song when I. [00:05:28] Speaker B: Was, like, three same. [00:05:30] Speaker A: And it's like. And you see that in, like, Old Testament, right? They talk about, like, well, like, they made it a song so that they would be able to remember it for generations to come. And it's like, oh, that's, like, really cool. [00:05:42] Speaker B: So awesome. [00:05:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And so. And then your dad became a Christian. Few years later, we left our old church, came to Bridge at the time, not. Yeah, yeah, Bridge. It was definitely not new. It was, like, in 2009 or something like that, maybe. Who knows? I know it was raw energy, youth. Oh, so you're cringing a little, baby. [00:06:10] Speaker B: That's great. [00:06:11] Speaker A: No, and that's where I really kind of, you know, start taking your faith a bit seriously. I started getting plugged in and, like, I started serving on Team. I found people who. Oh, man. I remember I walked in to this church and was, like, two things. One of them, which I'm not 100 sure if we'll make it on the podcast, but one of them was the first one, which is definitely fine, was I walked in and I was like, whoa. I did not know how cool Christians could be because I'd just never seen it. Like, the church I grew up in was like. I mean, they weren't lame, but, like, I was just a kid, and so I didn't really know much. And the other thing was, like, the church I'd grown up was, like, just fully Asian. So when I came to New Bridge, I was like, whoa. Like, cognitively. I knew that other races could be Christian, but I'd never seen it. And so I came. [00:07:03] Speaker B: Amazing. [00:07:05] Speaker A: So I was like, oh, my gosh. This is actually really cool. Anyway, side notes. [00:07:11] Speaker B: It's so funny because, okay, this also might not be a 25, but I refer to you as the most Aussie Asian I've ever met. Because you are. [00:07:20] Speaker A: It happened. I get it a lot. I mean, people ask me, like, oh, where do you come from? All the stuff. I'm like, I was born in Mitchum, man. I'm like, 20 minutes down the road. Oh, man. But, yeah, and then I guess I had a few youth leaders and stuff around that time. I remember a few people who really like when I first came, guys like Andrew Snooks, Chris Wong, some of these old, like Clive Ellis, like some of these leaders, right. They, you know, really like, they just saw me and they just like, hey, let's hang out. And that was just what was needed for a 12, 13 year old then. Yeah, I've still got. Actually I don't know if I still have it, but we had like these shirts and we spray painted Box Hill Brotherhood on them because that was the life group that we were part of. [00:08:09] Speaker B: Yes. Wait, I remember hearing about this. [00:08:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like there's a whole bunch of guys that if you just say box or brotherhood, they'll be like, oh my gosh, do you remember that time when Sam had a goldfish in his mouth for three minutes? [00:08:21] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:08:22] Speaker A: Yeah, youth was, youth was wild back. Yeah, definitely. And then we, I guess, yeah. Then we ended up moving churches. And that's when I kind of waned away from the faith a bit. I got, I was able to like play, play music and I worship led and stuff like that. But I was like 14 years old and I was leading like this and it was a church plant. I was leading this like team and it just, there was just no support system or any structure at the church because it was a church plant, let alone for a 13, 14 year old to be in charge of a team and leading. So it was like that really burnt me out. And like that's when I kind of just like, I was always like, yeah Lord, like I know you're real, but like, I don't know, I don't know if I want any of this kind of thing. And then in year 12, I had a not a chance encounter. God encounter. But God used someone to come, a person I remembered from youth. And he was like, hey, why aren't you back at youth? Like, you should come. And my mom was there. And my mom was like, yeah, you should go. And I was like, oh, okay. Like if it's going to make, you know, everyone happy and blah, blah. Then I went and I was like, cool. I think a year later, went to a camp, gave my life to Christ, recommitted my life to Christ. I felt the weight of the sin that I was living in. [00:09:49] Speaker B: Wow. [00:09:49] Speaker A: I felt the heaviness and I was like, oh, how long can I keep doing what I'm doing, wow. Before I need to come back to the Lord. And I just felt, yeah, I, I was like, I was all good, like just camp, like blah, blah, doing Whatever. And then I just. Just, like, landed on me, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I need it. I. I need to get this off me. Recommitted my life to Christ and then from there. Have also been discipled by so many other people, other youth pastors, obviously working at church. I've also had the privilege to work with so many leaders and stuff, and they have shaped my life and my wife as well. If you want someone to decipher, you get married. You will quickly find out where your sore spots are. [00:10:38] Speaker B: Yeah, you hear that, guys? Get married. [00:10:40] Speaker A: So, to answer, to sum it back all up, that was my whole life story. But sum it back all up, like, there are so many points in. There are so many touch points. And as I look back at my life, I can see, oh, God, you use this person there, and you use this person in that spot, and you made me go through that experience so that now I am here. [00:11:00] Speaker B: Yes. [00:11:01] Speaker A: Saying this stuff on this podcast. [00:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:04] Speaker A: So discipleship has. It is everything. [00:11:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:10] Speaker A: Because you can't, like, you can't live if, like, if we go to the analogy that Sheree was talking about, like, you need a carer as a child. If you don't have that carer, what happens to that child? Passes away. [00:11:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:26] Speaker A: And so, like, you need discipleship in all shapes and form in order to actually just live. It's like a lifestyle. It's not. Oh, discipleship has made me a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, yes, it does do that. But, like, man, I am breathing because. [00:11:41] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. [00:11:42] Speaker A: Because of the people who've invested into me. [00:11:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's like, it's so obvious when you're a baby that you need parents. But it's like, throughout a whole life where we're being led and following something. And I think this is ultimately what you're saying in your story is that, like, people could listen to this and go, oh, I don't agree with that. Like, I don't. I don't need discipleship to breathe. Like, I just live my life. And it's like, no, actually, you're following someone or something. [00:12:06] Speaker A: Y. [00:12:06] Speaker B: And if you're intentional about who that is and there's not intentionally intentionality from them as well, who are you following? You know? [00:12:15] Speaker A: Come on. Like, what is that going to be said? [00:12:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:18] Speaker A: Because, like, even the years that I was not walking with the Lord, I am being discipled because I'm a student. I'm learning something. And you, whether you like it or not, if you're not being intentional about Discipleship from a pastor or from God or from the Bible or whatever. You're getting it from social media, you're getting it from whatever you're watching on tv, you're getting it from the news, you're getting it from your peers and your friends. Iron sharpens iron. That's a. Even though that's a biblical concept, the thing about biblical concepts is that they work across all of life. [00:12:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:52] Speaker A: So it can sharpen you in a bad way if you become more like the world and less like him. And so you raise a really good point, because. No. All throughout your life, no matter, like, you're a baby, you're a kid, you're a toddler, you're always watching, you're always learning, you're always picking stuff up where you can't, like, turn that part of your brain off. Like, the moment you step into a new environment, you're trying to figure out, okay, how do I. How do I fit? What do I need to do? How do I assess this? Whatever. And so you are molding yourself in that very way. And so if you're not careful, the. The environments you step into allow yourself to see, like, eyes are the window to the soul. Right? [00:13:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:33] Speaker A: So if you're watching things that you shouldn't be watching, that's going to disciple you. [00:13:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:13:38] Speaker A: Regardless if you think it's discipleship, quote unquote or not. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Because no one's sitting there going, oh, yeah, this is discipleship, this sin. [00:13:47] Speaker A: This thing is time for my discipleship session with Netflix. [00:13:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, you're not going, yeah, cool. Netflix is discipling me, but it's true. It forms us. It's the same way with friendships. Like, you know, I. I'm a lot like this, but the people that I hang out with, I start picking up all their sayings and then becoming like them. And it's like we just naturally are going to be molded and discipled by our circumstances. And even as you were saying about how is it like, early teen years where you kind of went away from. [00:14:16] Speaker A: The law, like, 14, something like that? [00:14:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So in that, in that time of your life, was. Was that, like, circumstances that kind of discipled you away from that? And how do you think that even affected the way that you live today because of that circumstance? [00:14:31] Speaker A: Yeah, really good. Really good. I think the main things was when we left Bridge, at the time, I had just gotten connected in, and I was so excited to be a part of a community and, you know, be part of the youth ministry. And then when we moved it was very isolating because there were no, it was a church plant. So there were no, like, no other youth or people my age. I mean, there were, there were a couple, but they were like people that I was dragging along to, to come because I had no one there. And I was thrust right into serving and serving not from a place of I want to be here, but from a place of, well, this is what my parents have told me to do, so I'm just gonna have to do it right. And I love my parents. They, like, they're awesome and they have to style me greatly. But I think in that season that was really hard for me. [00:15:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:27] Speaker A: Because I didn't even want to be there, but I was there every single week. We're doing rehearsals and I was like a 14, 15 year old kid taking care of, like there were a couple of adults in our team. And it's like that, that wasn't, that wasn't the most fun experience I've had. And I guess just that I also entered into like a relationship that was not a Christian, like, she wasn't a Christian. And I guess just like social pressures at school and all that type of stuff. You know, you go into these things, you just, in the, you don't think about the future at that moment. You think about, oh, what do I feel like I want to do now? Like, what feels fun, what feels nice, what feels comfortable. And you just go and do things based on how you feel at the time, not realizing the impact that that would have in your future. So I mean, some things that I guess when I finished up high school and got into uni, like around that time when I recommitted my life to Christ and that relationship ended and all that kind of stuff, there were things that I had to walk through because of that season. [00:16:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:42] Speaker A: Stuff to do with soul ties, that kind of thing. I remember I would be just going about my day, just. And this is an amazing example of like discipleship with the Holy Spirit. So I would just be going around my day and then just blah, blah, blah, having a great day. And then suddenly her name would whisk through my head. Like it came through one ear and out the other. And it was like, why am I thinking about her? And I would feel emotions of anger, sadness, bitterness, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, this is not good. I'm like, what's going on? And I felt like this was a really good opportunity and moment for me to actually, like, I had to break that off my life. And so every time that would come into my head. I would identify it, know that that's not actually how I felt. And I would start to pray blessing for her. [00:17:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:43] Speaker A: And I would actually start to pray, like, you know, Psalm 23 over. [00:17:48] Speaker B: And. [00:17:48] Speaker A: Yeah, she's not a Christian. I mean, I don't. We're not in contact or anything, but, you know, that was something that I had to do to break that thing. And that got less and less and less and less. And as I journeyed that with the Holy Spirit, no one taught me to do that. No one said, hey, you need to do this. But I'd been reading the Bible and take captive every thought. And I decided I got to take captive every thought because otherwise these thoughts are going to overwhelm me. [00:18:14] Speaker B: Yep. [00:18:15] Speaker A: So did that. And then that continued like, it got less and less. And I was able to deal with it. I was equipped with it and to be able to deal with it. But then it would still come in every now and then. Then there was another youth camp, and I was leading at that. I was a youth leader at that one. And the guy, I had never heard about soul ties before, and this guy, he came up, the preacher, and he was like, I just feel like we've got to cut soul ties. And he explained them. And I was like, that's me. I've got that. And so prayed for me. And after that, I've never received that anymore. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Wow. [00:18:50] Speaker A: But it was so cool because I've got. I was both equipped, I think sometimes. Oftentimes I see it happen the other way around. [00:19:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:01] Speaker A: And there'll be like a deliverance moment or like a breakthrough moment in the spirit. And then you got to learn how to walk that out. [00:19:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:09] Speaker A: For me, that was a like almost in reverse. I learned how to deal with it because, I mean, I had. I was equipped by reading the Word and listening to the Holy Spirit and what he was saying about it and what to do. But then also had a moment of like the breaking off of that soul tie that was delivered through someone as well. [00:19:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's really beautiful because then what you're going back to is kind of this. I mean, for lack of a better way to put it, this law of first mentioned thing, it's like, well, the Holy Spirit showed me that first. Now I'm not attached to this guest minister, this person, this to deliver me, because it's not them. It's like, well, God works through them and obviously we need people and God appoints people to do this. And it's amazing. But it was like your first experience was the Holy Spirit doing that work in you. And then he also used someone to partner with that deliverance for you. And I think that that's so beautiful because then it draws you back to going, okay, I'm not dependent on that person, but I'm dependent on the Holy Spirit 100%. Can you talk a little bit more about that? About being dependent on the Holy Spirit, Spirit and the Word discipling you? [00:20:13] Speaker A: Yeah, big time. The Holy Spirit has been paramount and will always be paramount in discipleship because he is like, without him, reading the Word is hard. Yeah. It's hard to understand. It's a. It's a crazy text. You read some stuff and you're like, whoa, what the heck? [00:20:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:34] Speaker A: But you need to read it with the Holy Spirit with you. And he will illuminate things. Things in it. [00:20:38] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:20:38] Speaker A: And he will show you, like, oh, this is how you can apply that into your life. This is what that means. And I think, you know, like, here at Newma Church, we've got a couple of values. Like, God's Word is our foundation. Prayer feels power, but the questions that come with it are really good. So prayer fuels powers. Like, have you prayed about it? And God's Word is our foundation. The question that comes with that is, what. What does God's Word say about it? Right. [00:21:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:04] Speaker A: And it's like, it's crazy how many people will come to me or to you. Probably I'm just assuming here. Or go to someone else or go to the Internet or Reddit or wherever you're getting your information from and be like, I am dealing with this problem. Hey, Chat, I am dealing with this problem. [00:21:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:24] Speaker A: How do I fix it? [00:21:25] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:26] Speaker A: And we, like, I. I don't know, maybe it's because we just don't know how to read the Bible or we don't let the Word form us in that way, and we just read it as a text. But there is such, like, we can't depend on other people or other resources in order to, you know, fill us up or make us take our next step. [00:21:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:49] Speaker A: Like, you can have the best leader, you can have the best disciple, you can have the best people around you, but you need to, like, let that form you. And also, like, God, Holy Spirit, Jesus, like, he's the best disciple. [00:22:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:05] Speaker A: And his Word is. Is. [00:22:09] Speaker B: It's written for our learning. Yeah. [00:22:11] Speaker A: We live in Australia. [00:22:12] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:12] Speaker A: Where we actually have access to the Word. And it's not like you need to go to an underground church and find Stuff. We've got so many translations. Yeah, like there's. There's so many. Take. Take your pick. I'd pick esv, but take your pick. I'm not going to judge. But there. I don't know, there's really no excuse. There's no substitute. So it doesn't make sense to, like, let's say you could go to, like, you're learning any school, right. You could go to me, right? Who? Like, I do. I play guitar. Let's say you're learning guitar, you come to me and you're like, oh, like, can you teach me stuff about guitar? I can teach you to a certain level. Right. Because I am. I played for X amount of years and I've done whatever and I can teach you a certain amount. But why wouldn't you go. But if you also had the option to go to like John Mayer or like Jonah, like Ray Vaughan or like these legends. [00:23:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:12] Speaker A: They would have so much more to teach you. Right. And that's not an accurate comparison of God versus us, because God is so much infinitely better than the great guitarist. Yeah, but as in, why would you go to someone who knows less in some way? Like when you have the author and perfecter of our faith, and when you have the Creator, the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, why would you go to anywhere else besides that source when he is the source of truth? [00:23:41] Speaker B: Come on. [00:23:41] Speaker A: I'm not like, I'm gonna try my best. [00:23:43] Speaker B: Yes. [00:23:43] Speaker A: But. But my brain's not that big. [00:23:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:46] Speaker A: I can't comprehend like all this stuff. So you need the Lord to, like, we need to go to the Lord for our discipleship. And I think that's where we can get confused with the word discipleship as well. [00:23:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:00] Speaker A: Because we think about. Jess is discipling me, Sam is discipling me, I'm discipling this person. And yes, there is a part of people discipling people 100%. Absolutely. Let's not throw that away. But we cannot replace the discipleship of the Holy Spirit and of the Word in our lives with other people. [00:24:17] Speaker B: Yes. [00:24:19] Speaker A: Because that, that story that I shared about my own life and breaking through soul ties and breaking through and taking captive every thought. Now, because I have my own revelation and my own experience of that, I can actually help lead people into that space as well. [00:24:36] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. [00:24:37] Speaker A: But I can't. But. But if I didn't go through that and somebody just prayed for me and it just happened or whatever, I'm living like I'm Almost living vicariously through somebody else's revelation, somebody else's thing. And so when that thing comes up again in my life or comes up in somebody else's life, I might not have the tools to deal with it. [00:24:59] Speaker B: Or you're running to them instead of running to the Lord or. Yeah, they're not there, then you suddenly like isolated and alone. Yeah, yeah. [00:25:06] Speaker A: And I become dependent on something. Like if your leaders are here for a moment and then in another season they're not there, then what are you going to do? You're going to not read, you're going to not like. [00:25:18] Speaker B: Yes, yeah, we can't be totally dependent on them. And it's, it's like, you know, as we've mentioned a couple times already, it's like babies and children are dependent, but as you mature, you need to, it needs to be your own. It has to be your own. You've got to make your own decision to do it. And I think when we just go to solution, like when we just go to Google ChatGPT, whatever, it's. We rob ourselves of two things. We rob ourselves one of actually being formed. [00:25:43] Speaker A: Yes. [00:25:44] Speaker B: Because when you don't get the answer straight away, you actually have to be formed into the kind of person that can receive it. Not just receiving fish, but being taught how to be a fisherman. Right. So you rob yourself of being formed, but you also rob yourself of relationship with a person that can reveal more of God to you or the Holy Spirit that can reveal more of God to you. So you, so you're, you're just jumping into that thing instead of actually like, let me go on this journey. It's harder, it's more time consuming. So of course you don't want to do it, but that's the whole point. The flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. And so we have to be willing to do the painful thing and maybe the more long term thing of not just running to how do I get a quick fix? But actually I'm going to get my solution. But along the way I'm going to be formed into the kind of person that can. [00:26:30] Speaker A: Yeah. So good, because the, we need to wrestle with the word rather than. And I think sometimes we look at the Bible and I've heard it this way before, where we try to master it, where we try to understand it, like, yes, good. And we're like, tick, tick, tick, I understand the Trinity, tick, tick, tick, I understand baptism, all that stuff. But actually it's not like, I don't know if this is a half baked idea. But like, rather than us being able to summarize the Bible, it's almost like the Bible should be able to summarize us in the way that it's should be reading into me and it should be like, oh, like it's changing me and it's doing all that stuff within me rather than me being like, yeah, I can tell you all the commandments and I can tell you the, the genealogy. [00:27:10] Speaker B: Good. Yeah. [00:27:11] Speaker A: And it's like, that's you. We don't read, yeah, we don't read the Bible for information but for formation. So like the wrestle is just as important. And I think in a 21st century world where, yeah, you can just go to Google, you can go to chat GPT, you can go to all these places and just search up things we become. Yeah, you get robbed of the, the wrestle with the Lord and in the Word. And in that you miss out on the relationship because it just becomes a hey genie, like what's the magic? What's the answer? [00:27:46] Speaker B: And, and the same thing can happen, like not just with the Word, but also with people discipling us. [00:27:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:51] Speaker B: So I've had people that I've gone to and been like, okay, cool, I'm dealing with this problem, give me an answer. And sometimes they have, and that's been really helpful. But sometimes literally. I met up with Pastor show yesterday. She was like, she was like, okay, I want you to, this is like, this is what I think about this. But I want you to go to the Holy Spirit and actually get an answer for yourself. And it's frustrating in the moment because you're like, I just want you to tell me the answer. Just, you know, like, tell me yes or no, tell me what to do, how to solve this problem, whatever. But it's like, no, no, no. Their job and our job as disciplers is to point people back to Jesus. It's not always the nice solution. It doesn't always feel good in the moment. You're like, no, just tell me. But it's like, no, no. We're not supposed to be dependent on that person. We're supposed to be dependent on the Holy Spirit, the job of a disciple. We're not throwing out that idea, but actually viewing it from a higher perspective. It's not, I'm dependent on Sam or I'm dependent on the Holy Spirit. I'm dependent on the Holy Spirit. And Sam keeps from. If Sam was discipling me in this scenario, Sam keeps saying, what does the Lord say about that? What does the Word. Say about. And he keeps pointing me back to Jesus. That's what discipleship is supposed to. [00:28:52] Speaker A: Yes. [00:28:53] Speaker B: And that's why we need people. Like, first and foremost, we need the Word and the Holy Spirit, but people are supposed to keep redirecting us back to Him. [00:29:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's people, not leaders, necessarily, because discipleship is, as we were kind of saying before, like, yeah, it's 360. If you only grab from leaders, you're going to miss out on how other people view. View you. [00:29:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:15] Speaker A: Like, again, iron sharpens iron. Right. The people around you are going to make you stronger. So you've got to surround yourselves with the right people. And that's friendships. That's. Yeah. In your family, that's whoever you're. [00:29:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:27] Speaker A: All this type of stuff. And unfortunately, sometimes you got to get. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Rid of a couple of people, like, oh. [00:29:35] Speaker A: Said that on the young adults podcast. But there are like. I mean, you read some of Paul's letters. He's like, hand them over to the devil. I'm hoping that we're not getting to that level. [00:29:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:49] Speaker A: But what I am saying is, like, it's 360. Like, as a leader, if I, like, I have a team of people, and if I don't allow them to speak into my life, oh, like, I'm going to miss out on so much that they have to offer. [00:30:04] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:30:04] Speaker A: Even though I wish people can see my quotation marks in the air. Even though I'm their hierarchy. Cool. Leader. [00:30:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:30:11] Speaker A: Like, yeah. But I would be missing out on one of the ways that God could speak to me. [00:30:16] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:30:16] Speaker A: If I decide to cut that off, because I'm like, no, I'm only going to get it from Bill Johnson or from Sheree Rice, from Jess Carolina. Do you know what I mean? Like, so you have, like, it's all around you. And there's a distinction between, like, yes, there are things that we do weigh up with perhaps a bit more authority because of the leadership and authority that. That God has placed on people's lives. So, yes, we do submit to that, but also, like, we. We need to listen and pay attention to what other people around us are saying, because if we don't open our eyes and open our ears to what the Lord's doing, we'll miss it. [00:30:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:54] Speaker A: And you will wonder why, like, oh, why are people here and I'm not there? Or like, whatever it is. And it's like, well, perhaps because you've close yourself off to some people who actually were speaking things in your life, and that's Again, the thing about discipleship, it's not going to be rainbows and butterflies. [00:31:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:12] Speaker A: And sunshine and flowers, and the list goes on. [00:31:14] Speaker B: All the beautiful things in life. [00:31:16] Speaker A: Some of the best discipleship moments have been. That was bad, Sam. And in the moment, I'm like, no, you're bad. But then you go back and you reflect, and you're like, oh, yeah, you know what? That person was right. And they actually cared about me enough to tell me. [00:31:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:37] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not. Discipleship is not an easy thing. Like, is a whole. Like, the disciples gave up their nets. They dropped their whole livelihoods. They went to follow Jesus. [00:31:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:52] Speaker A: And so, in a similar way, like, you can't spare any part of your life if you. You want to be a disciple. And so the good things, the bad things, like, the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it's out on display. [00:32:06] Speaker B: Yep. [00:32:07] Speaker A: But if you don't, if you decide now, just decipher the good things. Just tell me how good I am. You're gonna miss out on so much that the Lord wants to do in you and through you. [00:32:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:17] Speaker A: And he wants to complete the good work that he started in you. That includes all the bad things. [00:32:23] Speaker B: Yep. [00:32:23] Speaker A: He wants to see you come into. Into wholeness and to become perfect as he is perfect. And so that is part of the journey. Yeah. As I was saying, like, some of the. Some of the most memorable times of discipleship in my life is people calling out my blind spots. And I'm forever grateful for that. Or situations that call up my blind spots. [00:32:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:46] Speaker A: This is what I was saying before. Like, if you want to get married. [00:32:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:49] Speaker A: They'll call out your blind spots. [00:32:51] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:32:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And I, like, I love what you're saying, because for me, there's been moments where I'm like, oh, I don't want to talk to them about that thing. I don't want to open up about this. It's like, it requires this level of vulnerability that's uncomfortable. And Pastor Joe Samuel, incredible discipler. He. There was moments that he would call out things in me that, like. And I don't mean, like, call out, wow, you're amazing. Which he did all the time and probably too much. I loved it. But he was also like, oh, this thing. Or is there an issue here? And would press on something in my heart that I hadn't opened up to him because I didn't want to. But him doing that actually allowed me to receive healing in those areas because he was helping me to be vulnerable with him. [00:33:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:37] Speaker B: And he said this quote, which I use all the time to people. So if I've ever just upward you and said this to you, this is where I got it from. He says nothing good grows in the dark. [00:33:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:46] Speaker B: The things that go in the dark. [00:33:47] Speaker A: Mold. [00:33:49] Speaker B: Nasty things grow in the dark. And so if we keep things in the dark because we're like, well, I don't want to reveal this. Like, I want to keep this little sin. Or even if it's not a sin. It's just like I'm afraid to open up this part of myself. Then it's. You're not actually going to get healing from it. I know. Kind of veering off what we were saying before for. But I just think that that's so important that we are vulnerable. [00:34:12] Speaker A: Yes. [00:34:12] Speaker B: And that we do allow people in and we allow them to speak into those areas too. [00:34:18] Speaker A: 100. And I think we as a collective of people, church leaders, congregation members, volunteers, all that type of stuff. Feedback is not scary. It should not be scary. [00:34:30] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:30] Speaker A: Like, if somebody's telling you how you can do things better, that's a blessing. [00:34:35] Speaker B: Come on now. Yeah. [00:34:36] Speaker A: What's the verse like? Better other wounds of a friend than the kisses of an enemy. I think that's something like that. [00:34:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:42] Speaker A: Don't quote me on that. But it'll be. It'll be somewhere in there. Yeah. It's like they will. They're gonna tell you stuff. Because nobody wants to have that hard conversation. I don't want to go up to you and be like, hey, you need to work on this. [00:34:55] Speaker B: Yeah. It's actually really hard to do that. [00:34:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:34:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:57] Speaker A: But I think. And it's a good almost litmus test of your relationship. If you can have that conversation. It's like, okay, this is a brother or a sister or someone who can call this stuff out in me. And maybe I might be a little bit offended in the moment. Right. It wasn't a little bit. [00:35:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:14] Speaker A: But it's also like, well, okay, this person actually loves me enough to show me the error of my ways. [00:35:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:21] Speaker A: And it's not a condemnation. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [00:35:25] Speaker B: Amen. [00:35:26] Speaker A: But. But it's literally like, hey, I see this in you. And like, again, I keep going back to it. But iron sharpens iron. [00:35:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:33] Speaker A: And so you have to be both ready to receive, but also, like, if you have something with someone that you need to talk to about them. Like you go and talk to them about it. [00:35:45] Speaker B: Yes. [00:35:46] Speaker A: I don't. Is it Matthew 16? I can't remember 18:18. Yeah, yeah. Where it talks about, like, if you have, if you have a, if your brother sins against you, you go and talk to them first. You don't go to your leader. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:59] Speaker A: You don't go. I don't, I don't go and tell. [00:36:02] Speaker B: You a close friend story. [00:36:06] Speaker A: No, but I don't, I don't want to hear about it. Like, because, I mean, I'll, I'll hear about it afterwards. If you've had that conversation and it didn't go well. Yeah, but like, this is, I think people will look at the pastoral leader and look to them for everything. And this is what kind of talk, like, kind of circling back a little bit. They look at them for discipleship and for an answer and for blah, blah, blah. But also as mediator, also as trainer, also as carer. And it's like, well, I can't be like, I'm not that good, man. Be that for you. [00:36:40] Speaker B: I, I actually like when I first started in ministry, like, not just when I came on staff, but even just when I was like life group leaving. [00:36:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:48] Speaker B: I thought I had to be the answer to everyone's problems and have every solution and man, the freedom. When I realized I didn't like lay that down to anyone listening. Like, you don't have to be the answer. [00:36:59] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. [00:37:00] Speaker B: I want to read that scripture that you mentioned, which, by the way, guys, I will give you $5 if you can give me the reference. Every scripture that Sam has just quoted while you've been talking, he's like spitting scripture every five seconds. Don't hold me to that. Matthew 18, verse 15 is what he's referring to. It says, this is NKJV. Moreover, if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you've gained your brother. But if he will not hear you, take with you one or two more and by the mouth of two or three witnesses, the world will be established. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church, etc. So it's saying that, that going to the person is not just the best solution. You're actually gaining brother. That's exactly what you said. It's a test of the relationship is if I can go to you and say, hey, this offended me, or the way you did that you could have done a little bit better. If, if, if I can do that and I can actually bring up my issue with you, then it's not just bringing freedom, but it's also gaining relationship. [00:38:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:02] Speaker B: And something you mentioned before about, like, you know, sometimes there's people need to cut out of our lives. I think that requires a lot of discernment. [00:38:09] Speaker A: Yes. [00:38:09] Speaker B: To go, am I cutting this person out because I'm offended and if I just had a conversation, I'd actually gain a brother or sister? Or am I cutting them out because actually, like, they're a really bad influence on me and every time I hang out with them, I end up getting drunk. You know, like, you know, you've got to actually have discernment to go, is this person sharpening me because they're causing me to be more patient? Yeah, maybe in the wrong ways they're sharpening you, but. But you're committed to them as a brother and sister in Christ. And you. You're not just going to cut them off because they don't give you anything in your life, but you're going. You're willing to be sharpened by them through the pain of it. And, you know, and then there's people that will sharpen you in a nice way that feels good. And we all love those friends. But, yeah, just even having that discernment to go, am I. How much am I willing to pay for this relationship? Whether it's a discipleship, friendship, you know, whatever it is. But the price you're willing to pay will determine the reward you're going to get out of it. In that sense, like, the more expensive item of clothing you buy, the better quality is generally. [00:39:10] Speaker A: Yeah. If you're only going to give a little bit of your life to be discipled, you're only going to get a little bit of discipleship. [00:39:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:15] Speaker A: If you give your whole life to disciple, to be discipled, you will receive your whole life in discipleship. You will reap what you sow. [00:39:21] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:39:21] Speaker A: And so that's just. That's just how it is. Sorry, guys. [00:39:25] Speaker B: How it is? [00:39:25] Speaker A: Yes, that's just it. [00:39:27] Speaker B: And sometimes it's not the way of the world, but the way of the kingdom is not always the way of the world. So, yes, that's it. That's good. All right, I think it's time for us to wrap up. We've been yapping a lot, but, Sam, I would just love. Firstly, there's any final thoughts you wanted to share, I'm going to give you that space to do. But then I would also love for you to pray over our listeners. [00:39:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I think if I could probably just leave one thing with everyone, it's that discipleship kind of going back to how I started it. Discipleship is holistic. Like it has been. It has formed my entire life, and whether you know it or not, it's formed yours. And so even just going back and looking at, oh, who's actually discipled me, what have I gained from those moments? What have I. What have I learned, and what have I walked through and journeyed through with the Lord? [00:40:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:16] Speaker A: And you'll start to see the goodness of God in your life. You'll start to see how his grace and his mercy has followed you for all the days of your life. And when that happens, you'll get excited, and not for any other reason, but like, oh, wow, God, you've actually moved in my life. And you can bring that into your world, but also into other people's worlds as well. But it's. Yeah, I think we just need to be intentional about the unintentional discipleship that happens around us. I think that's probably where I'm trying to land that. [00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:49] Speaker A: But. Yeah, and then. And then also just, hey, don't rely on me or Jess. Well, we're going to try, but we are not the Lord. He's so much better than us, 100%. I know. We're. We're on a podcast. We're on a podcast, and we're talking about it, and that's great, but don't just listen to the podcast. [00:41:07] Speaker B: Now. Go and pray. [00:41:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:09] Speaker B: Go read your Bible. [00:41:10] Speaker A: You better get onto your knees and start praying after this. [00:41:13] Speaker B: Yes. [00:41:14] Speaker A: Pull over. Stop the car. Turn the engine off. Get up now. [00:41:17] Speaker B: Yeah, just don't close your eyes while you're driving. [00:41:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that's it. You can pray with your eyes open. I'll leave that one for you. [00:41:25] Speaker B: So good. [00:41:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:26] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. [00:41:28] Speaker A: Well, let's pray. Yeah. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Father. So, Lord, I thank you for every listener, for everybody who's tuned into this podcast. Lord, I pray that the words that Jess and I have shared in the comments conversation that we've had would not just be empty words, would not just be something that are good ideas or a man's plan or something. But, Lord, I pray that your word would have come through our lips and that you would. You would have used us to help form and shape someone, no matter how many people are listening, no matter how many. How far this goes. But, Lord, I pray that there would be fruit that you are creating. Lord, I pray that we. I thank you that we have a chance to just plant some seeds or maybe water some seeds. Lord, I thank you that it's you who gives. Gives the growth. [00:42:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:42:19] Speaker A: And so, Lord, I thank you so much for this time to. To talk. I pray that you would increase the levels of discipleship across this church and across the city and this nation. That we would have mature believers. [00:42:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:33] Speaker A: That they would. We would grow up to be the fourth fullness of Christ. That we would not stay stuck as babies, but we would actually be full, mature adults and able to do everything that you have asked us to. And so, Lord, would you guide us in every moment? Holy Spirit, would you disciple us? Would you show us the error of our ways? Would you open our hearts and see what we need to. To work on where we can grow, what we can do? Would you send the right people at the right time to speak into our lives, Lord? And whether it's things we like to hear or things we don't want to hear, Lord, I pray that we would open up our hearts to you entirely, leave no trace of it behind. That you would completely overturn our hearts, Father. And so we give you this time. We thank you for the time that we've had. And I just pray a blessing over everyone listening. I pray for a blessing in their relationships and I pray for a blessing in their work and whatever they're doing. Would you just give them grace and strength and mercy? And I pray that you would show yourself and be evident in every single step of the way in. In their lives. So in. We love you, we adore you. We don't do any of this for any other reason except to give you praise and to give you glory and to see you be lifted higher. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. [00:43:52] Speaker B: Amen. Thank you so much. [00:43:54] Speaker A: You're so welcome. Thank you for having me. [00:43:56] Speaker B: Such a blessing. And I know that everyone will enjoy listening to this, so please provide your feedback. Even if it's bad. That's right. We invite your feedback. [00:44:04] Speaker A: This is the true test. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Send us a message or DM us on Instagram comment and let us know your thoughts. We'd love to hear how this has impacted you. And yeah, we look forward to you guys listening. I always go to say, seeing you again in the next episode, I'm like, we don't see you, you don't see us. We look forward to you guys listening again in the next episode. We love you.