Q+A: Answering Your Season 1 Questions!

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the YA podcast. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Lean in as we dive into the. [00:00:06] Speaker A: Practicals of life with Jesus as spirit filled young adults. Hello, everyone, and welcome to our final episode of the YA podcast for season one. I can't believe we're here already. We've covered some fun topics this season and we have arrived at our q and a episode. This is something we've been talking about all the way through the podcast so far, that at the end of the day, we want to do something that's actually going to serve you guys. We want to do something that's going to disciple you guys. But obviously, with discipleship comes questions, and so we want to facilitate a space where you guys can ask your questions and we can hopefully give you guys some answers that help you draw even more out of the episodes we've already done. So that's the goal for today. I'm here with Pastor Thomas. Hello, my lovely husband. And I'm here with Pastor Erin, my lovely global prayer pastor. Thank you for joining us today, guys. Obviously, both these guys have been on multiple episodes throughout the season, as well as Sam, who unfortunately couldn't be with us today. He's just come back from a lads trip in Bali, so living his best life. We're not sorry about that, but he'll be joining us in spirit by editing this episode. So we thank you for that. Yes, thank you, Sam, and thank you for all your biblical wisdom throughout the season. So we're very thankful for that. But essentially, we put out to you guys to ask us questions and we've received some and we're going to do our best to talk about them. Obviously, our goal is that we don't want to be just sharing our thoughts and opinions because we shouldn't be discipled to man, but we should be discipled to Jesus. So we're obviously going to do our best to point you guys back to the Bible and point you guys back to the truth and who Jesus is through these questions. So hopefully it's helpful and hopefully we get somewhere productive, but we'll also just be chatting and I guess, like, talking about stuff as it comes up. So, yeah, it's going to be fun. Are you guys ready to get into it? [00:02:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:02:24] Speaker A: Let's go. I'm going to start. I mean, I guess you guys know we've covered a whole bunch of different topics this season. We've had some really great Bible chats which have kind of gone more down the interpretation, understanding context, understanding culture. So we've got a few questions around that, but some of people's favorite episodes of this season were with Pastor Erin. Heard so much great feedback, Erin, on some of the stuff that we got to share together and just the way that it really ministered to people's hearts. We have a few questions around that, so I'm going to throw to you first. Tom, jump in whenever you like. [00:02:57] Speaker C: Sure. [00:02:58] Speaker A: But our first question based around the conversation we had about your testimony and about, I guess, your journey of understanding Jesus as Lord, beyond understanding him, just as saviour. Right? Someone's asked the question, what is the difference between knowing Jesus and surrendering to Jesus? [00:03:18] Speaker B: It's such a good question. First of all, I love just talking about the Bible, different understandings, different things, because I think that's actually how scripture, like, one of the intentions about how scripture should be read, it should be discussed. So the fact that. And that was for a long time, like, the way it was done in community. So I love that, like, even in this age, in 2024, we are having that in a virtual component, but that that's actually how we are to read the word and discuss life as Christ followers. So, first of all, I think that fact of, like, having a two way conversation, even through, like, this kind of q and a is just so part of how we're meant to live, like, as Christians followers. So, yay. So, yes, what's the difference between knowing, knowing Jesus and surrendering to Jesus? So, you know, the word know in like, Hebrew is the word yada, right? And the word to know God, to yada with God. I mean, yada is the word that is used for the most intimate intercourse of humanity. It also talks about, you can read in Genesis where they're talking about the Yara of the Lord. So to know God is never meant to be a cerebral knowing. It is meant to be the idea of the most intimate joining and union of people and God. So to know the Lord and to be known by the Lord is a yada. The idea that it actually gives us, like, sexual intimacy so that we are one with God and God is one with us. So when we're talking about a biblical knowing, I think that when you come, like, when you come into intimacy with God in that way that you are yarding with him, it also evokes a whole concept of, like, the knowledge of God, right? So if you are one with someone in that way that the hebrew language is invoking of, like, intimacy of, like, heart to heart connection, body to body connection, even this union together, you are very within that evokes this idea of knowing someone intimately and I think we can't know God when we truly know God. I feel like that's the beginning of like, the fear of the Lord, of like, when I get this concept of like, like, I know I have a revelation, receive a revelation of another aspect of who God is. It's like, whoa. The awe and wonder comes. And then generally this, like, beautiful fear of the Lord of like, wow, God, you are so, like, big and all powerful and like, loving and, like, you are really the alpha and the omega. So this fear of the Lord comes with the knowing of the Lord. And this fear of God is, I think, what allows us to beautifully, like, surrender into his leading. Because when I get this picture of like, how big God is and how truly good he is in my life and how perfect his leadership of my life is because of who he truly is, the surrender, there is nothing else to do in my heart but surrender to that because the rest is like, I can't, like, I can't lead myself better than the Lord can lead me. He has this full vision from beginning to end and he knows all the things that I don't know and understand. So I think that when we're talking about, we can sometimes know a lot about Jesus and not really know him. So I would say when I'm, when, when I guess I was discussing about knowing God, it's more like, okay, I, I knew who Jesus was in terms of, I knew the gospel, and I also knew that it wasn't just a figment of imagination or some good idea that someone dreamed up. I did have a knowing of, like, God is real and Jesus is that God and this is what he did. But I would say that knowing that Yara with God didn't happen until much after. So I think if you. Yeah, we have to be careful how we use the word no, because our culture and then biblical literature has two very different definitions of that. So I think when we truly get to this point of a revelation of, and that's an ongoing thing, right. Like constantly in our lives, this yada ing with God, this know, this knowing of God, I mean, when you just capture continual moments of his beauty and his glory, it's not hard to surrender to his leadership. [00:08:12] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, even with those, like, the differences in our semantics of our words, the hebrew mindset was that you couldn't actually know God without surrendering. Because it requires surrender. [00:08:29] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:30] Speaker C: And if we use that image of intimacy, I think from any human on the planet would be able to understand that in order to step into that closeness of relationship it requires you to surrender something. And so the question of how do you, what's the difference between knowing God and surrendering God? Well, to our biblical authors, there was no difference. [00:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:54] Speaker C: You couldn't fully know God unless you surrendered to him. Yeah. Just as, yeah, you need to. There's this thing in psychology on what relationship is built upon. And it talks about, actually, it's built upon your vulnerability. So the degree to your level that you were vulnerable will be the level of the relationship. [00:09:15] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:16] Speaker C: So with God, it's the same thing. We can't fully know God and be in full relationship with him unless we are vulnerable before him and actually surrendering our control, our mindsets. Surrendering, you can. The list goes on and on. But I'd argue, yeah. Knowing God is surrendering to God day by day. [00:09:34] Speaker B: Yeah, beautiful. I love that. And I think it happens in the same way as a relationship. Like, you're kind of saying, it's like, okay, I'm going to share this little bit of vulnerability with this person and kind of like, oh, can I trust them with this? What are they going to do? Yeah, like, going to judge me or are they going to keep it confidential or. I feel like God is also okay with this kind of approach of like, okay, God, I'm really struggling to trust you in my finances right now and give you the lordship over my finances. So, like, I'm going to. I'm going to give this. I'm going to, like, we can take one step towards the Lord. And it's like, as we draw close to him, he draws close to us. So I think it's a great example you were talking about. Because even in the, like, okay, well, how do I surrender to the lordship of Jesus? You know, and you're talking about vulnerability in a relationship. I feel like, at least for me, that's there has been that very like, God is, you know, a person. So it's been like that. It's been like, okay, I'm gonna trust you with this part. And then, oh, wow. Like, I've seen your goodness and I've tasted your goodness and like. And then that revelation of who he is allows and helps, like, the surrender in the other. [00:10:42] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. [00:10:43] Speaker B: Component. So it is like, almost like it is with a relationship of, okay, I'm gonna trust this vulnerable piece, and then God trusts you with something of his. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna share my heart with you about this situation. Like, can you actually be trusted to pray and intercede? So it's this, like, building of relationship yeah. [00:10:59] Speaker A: And I mean, an analogy. I've used this analogy before to talk about the concept of faith. [00:11:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:06] Speaker A: Because I feel like that's often something that we can get a bit kind of airy fairy. It's very true. [00:11:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:11:14] Speaker A: I feel like it comes back to that same knowing. But I've used the example of, like, when you enter into marriage. Like, when Tom and I got married, I knew him to an extent. You know, we had a good friendship. We decided we were on the same page about how many kids we wanted and, like, where we were going in life. But when you stand before God and before people on your wedding day, and you make vows, you're vowing to something that you actually haven't experienced yet. [00:11:39] Speaker B: Very good, Kelsey. [00:11:40] Speaker A: Like, I'm vowing to have him to hold, for better or for worse, for sickness and in health, for the next 80 years of my life. I'm like, I'm making a decision in faith that I believe Tom's the right person for me to marry. [00:11:49] Speaker B: That's beautiful. [00:11:50] Speaker A: But then you spend the rest of your life then getting to know that person spiritually, physically, intimately, emotionally, in all the ways that actually, it requires that ongoing, I guess, proving the relationship and testing the relationship and being vulnerable in the relationship. [00:12:08] Speaker B: Yes. [00:12:09] Speaker C: Ongoing surrender. [00:12:10] Speaker A: Yeah, that. Then you get to the end of 80 years of marriage, and you're like, yep, I knew Tom like, I knew him well. And in the same way with our faith to Jesus, we say yes to Jesus in faith, going, I believe you are who you say you are, but then you go on a lifelong journey of actually knowing who he is. And that same word, yada, I don't know if that's the Greek or the Hebrew. [00:12:34] Speaker C: Hebrew. [00:12:35] Speaker B: Hebrew. [00:12:35] Speaker A: I think the greek word in the scripture where Jesus says, you did all these things in my name, but get away from me. I never knew you. It's that same, like, intimacy. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Can you imagine getting to heaven? And Jesus was like, I never knew you. You did so many things for me, but I never knew on that, like, intimate level that, yeah, it's one of. [00:12:58] Speaker B: The most sobering scriptures, I feel, because especially in a culture like the one we're living in right now, I think it was Ben Fitzgerald that said some months ago, it's like Christianity is almost like, not in general, but he was talking about a thing that he was seeing rise is like, we have to be careful that this is not like a faith that has become about words like saying the right things. Like, I know what to say, the Lord was just showing me last week, like, this image of. There was two images on the left. There was this big bonfire that was, like, bright and, like, very, like, attention grabbing and, and it was loud and crackling. And there was a whole bunch of people that were gathering around this bonfire. And, and then on the other side, I saw a very quiet, not very seen at all. Like, you'd have to look to see it, but a whole bunch of people just standing almost in silence, washing people's feet. And I felt like just the Lord was warning like the fire was. He said, there's a whole bunch of people right now who are camping out around the idea of Jesus. And then there's a tribe of people who are just being Jesus. And there was a rule, I felt like a real attention of the holy spirit check for myself of, like, just be sure that you don't. That you're not. This. This bonfire is very loud and it's very, like, you know, bright and can be easy to be like, oh, what's happening over here? And, like, be drawn to this whole idea of, like, camp out around the idea of Jesus. Like, like, our faith is not an ideology. It's a person. He's a person. So don't get stuck in the whole idea of, like, camping out around the idea of Jesus and talking about Jesus and, like, debating about Jesus. It's like, this is an invitation to become Christ. [00:14:54] Speaker C: Like, yeah, really good. [00:14:57] Speaker B: I don't know how we got there, but here we are. Yeah. So I felt that for myself, but that very much in this day and age. Yeah, we can. Sometimes our faith, if we're not careful, can become about words and that would be cheating ourselves as so much. [00:15:15] Speaker A: And I think, I mean, I guess to take a bit of a practical spin on this question because I remember seasons of my life probably when I was, you know, 18, 1920. Like, I remember having conversations with Tom where I'm like, I don't know if I'm growing with Jesus and I don't know, like, I don't feel him more. I'm not like, you know, getting more prophetic words or like, trying to almost put, like, measures on, am I actually growing with Jesus or not? So I just want to say to all the young adults, take the pressure off yourself. There's no measure for how much we should or shouldn't be growing with Jesus. I think if I was to put a measure on it, I feel like it's, the more I've grown with Jesus, the more the fundamental revelations of Jesus have grown in my heart. Like, for example, I shared a word at youth a few weeks ago about grace, and God's just been wrecking me with the revelation of grace, of I am literally nothing except for what he's done in my life. And I'm like, you guys need to get this. And they're like, twelve and 13, and they've experienced nothing in their lives yet. And that's not their fault. They're just young. Like, you know, they're growing in Jesus as well, and they're just at a different stage of life. But, you know, we've just come through a season where we've lost multiple family members. You know, we've had massive changes in leadership and relationships and things like that that you actually need to understand what God's grace is to go like, I actually have nothing to offer you today, God, but I know you still have grace for me, and you still have everything I need in today. And it just, like, it's such a fundamental revelation of the Bible. It's such a fundamental revelation of our salvation to Jesus. But I feel like the more I've known Jesus, the more those revelations really hit home. It's like I haven't memorized any more scripture. And, like, some people say, oh, you're not growing enough in God because you haven't memorized any more scripture. But I weep at the thought of God's grace for me because I'm like, oh, my gosh, I actually can't do anything aside from him. [00:17:08] Speaker B: I think someone, once I heard them say, like, if we just, like, worked on living out the amount of scripture that we knew in our head today, like, it would take, like, we'd still be here at the end of our lives trying to embody the scripture that we already know now without even learning any more scripture. I love how you talk about that, kels, because I found myself partway through last year. Wow. Worshiping at the idol. I'm gonna say, like this. Worshipping at the idol of transformation, and it happened like this. I was sitting there at a sabbath, and we've been talking a lot about beholding Jesus. We've been talking a lot about being transformed into Christ likeness. And, like, beholding is the way. And. And I'd experienced. I'd come out of a season of, like, just really deep transformation, which was so beautiful. And I was sitting there on a sabbath, and I was almost saying, like, what you were saying of, like, oh, gosh, I feel like in this last, like, week or two weeks, like, I don't feel like there's been like, God's brought up anything that needs to be healed or, you know, I don't feel like I've had this really massive, like, aha. Moment in scripture or, like, I haven't had, like, quite bodily encounters with the lord. I'm like, I don't feel like I've had any of that. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, oh. Like, am I, like, walking away from Jesus? [00:18:18] Speaker A: And I don't even know, you start blaming yourself. You're like, am I not praying enough? Am I not this? [00:18:25] Speaker B: And Jesus just came, and he sat next to me. He's like, aaron, you know, like, spiritual transformation is not the goal. Like, I am the prize. Oh. I was like, yeah. And it. It wasn't. And I realized that in my time with him, because I'd been through so much transformation and healing and unwinding of wrong mindsets and rewiring of my mind, it had almost become like, every time I'd come and sit with him, I'd be like, okay, what do you want to heal, bring up, restore, unwind? Rather than just being with him. [00:19:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:05] Speaker B: And I didn't even realize that that had become the focus instead of him until he said that. I was like, oh, my gosh. Even good things, like, being transformed into Christ likeness, like, that's not the prize. That's the byproduct of, he is the prize. He is the pearl. He is the prize. And we can so easily, with a good heart. Like, none of my heart was bad in terms of, like, I'm going after things for, like, you know, things of this world or reasons or. It was like, I genuinely want to become more like Jesus. But when that became my focus and not Jesus, then I was now worshiping in a different idol. [00:19:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:19:45] Speaker B: So I think it's great when you're like. And it was easy. It was like, okay, so to just take people forward, it was like, that's you. I was just like, jesus, I'm so sorry. Like, my gosh, thank you so much for revealing that. And my heart just comes into full agreement with what you're saying, that you are the prize. If I didn't become any more like you any other day, like, I would still love you. I would still follow you. Like, you owe me nothing. You owe me nothing. You owe me nothing. You have already given me more than I would ever deserve by your mercy and your grace and, like, forgive me. And that was it. Like, that was. That's as much as was needed. And then, yeah, just follow him with whatever the next thing was, he's like, just come walk with me. Like, you don't need to read anything else or do any other, like, online courses. Just come and walk with me. I was like, I would love that. [00:20:32] Speaker C: Because it's often when we, like, in that moment, that's where, without knowing it, we've actually taken his job away from him. [00:20:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So true. [00:20:40] Speaker C: Like, going, like, coming to him for transformation. [00:20:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:43] Speaker C: We forget that he's the one that transformed. [00:20:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:46] Speaker C: So it's like just spending time with him. [00:20:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:49] Speaker C: It's the by product. We start chasing the product of relationship rather than relationship itself. [00:20:54] Speaker B: And it's easy. [00:20:55] Speaker C: Yeah. So easy to do. [00:20:56] Speaker B: Yep. [00:20:56] Speaker C: Because that's. I mean, that's our whole life, in a natural sense, is chasing the result of something. So then we take that into our relationship with Jesus. Yeah. I mean, we call relationships dysfunctional. If you are just trying to get something out of it. Right. Do it with Jesus. [00:21:14] Speaker B: And the beautiful thing is that he's like. He just is like, hey, let me tell you what's happening. He's not trying to hide things from us. He's not trying to punish us. Like, he's not trying to, you know, teach us a lesson. Like, that's not him at all. He's just like, yeah, friendly. Totally. He's. What's happened here? I was like, oh, my goodness. So there's no shame or condemnation that comes with that. It's just like when a good friend's like, hey, this. Instead of this, you're like, oh, yeah, yes. Jump back on the horse. Off you go. Yeah. Don't get weighed down in shame if they are the things. [00:21:49] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like we could just finish there, but let's keep going. [00:21:53] Speaker B: More questions. [00:21:54] Speaker A: It's actually really good that we started there. And we've hit the nail on the head of that from the beginning because some of our questions are quite practical. [00:22:00] Speaker C: Good. [00:22:01] Speaker A: And we can hold intention, the two truths that we have access to so many great resources in prayer practices. And, you know, the Bible does call us to pray and fast and read the word and be grounded in it, but also hold the tension of. But everything is about Jesus. And that actually, our prayer practices and those sorts of things would be tools to, I guess, feed that relationship with that goal, not any other goal. So it's really good we've started there because my next question is. May seem like a really simple question, but it's actually a really profound question and probably goes deeper than even what the words of the question are. But a question one of our young adults asked, which I think is really great, is when should I pray out loud? Versus when should I pray in my head? [00:22:49] Speaker B: Such a quick question. [00:22:50] Speaker A: Does the Bible draw a distinction? Is there times that we should or shouldn't? Are there context that we should or shouldn't? What are your thoughts? [00:22:58] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. It's such a good question. So, yeah, I'm going to talk around. I don't think there's a yes no, like, here's the five points kind of answer. So when we look at scripture, we obviously see Jesus teach the disciples to pray, and he teaches them to pray. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us day our daily bread, and forgive our sins of those who sin against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For yours is the kingdom, the power, and the glory. Amen. And that is, that is a vocal prayer. [00:23:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:30] Speaker B: We also see, like, if we go back the psalms, I mean, that's a whole book of prayer. Like, that would have been sung, that would have been spoken. So we do see. We do see definitely some of the model of prayer to be spoken. Prayer for a lot of reasons. Like, there's a whole bunch of reasons. There's spiritual reasons in terms of we have been given authority. We know that the word teaches that our words have authority. Like, we shift atmospheres with the words that we are given. The creative ability, we're given this crazy ability to be like the Lord in the fact that we can actually create, that's just wild. Like, so we have been given the authority to be able to create here on earth in a billion ways. We create life. We, through, like, very practical things, like, we are actually able to create another human. Wild. Like, that's just wild. Anyone who's, like, had a child, like, when you hold that baby in your hand, you're like, oh, my gosh. Like, we created this thing. Like, what the heck? So, like, and with our words, the same kind of thing. Like, we have been able to, you know, like, some of the ministry areas that I follow is, like, inner healing and deliverance ministries. And it's wild to see words spoken over people, like, 20, 30, 40 years ago that have held something over them for decades. Like, our words create. And I think everyone would have, in different ways, a recognition of that, whether it's, you've had, you know, even a bad nickname given to you that, you know, has created something that you've, you know, pushed, had to heal from or push through or whatever the case may be. So we have this ability to create with our words. And I think that there's an important creative component, definitely, to prayer that comes when words are spoken out loud. And there's definitely times in my life where sometimes if I'm feeling like, especially if it's in an area of intercession or petition or even, you know, like, it talks about groans that, like, don't have specific words, like, sometimes there, that is the intercession. But there is definitely sometimes when I'm praying something in my mind and I'm in my head between God and I, and especially in the area of, like, oh, man, I'm just feeling really, like, maybe hopeless, or I'm feeling really like, Lord, where are you? And what's happening? And I moved to prayers of gratitude when I. The difference between when I speak that out and when I say it in my head, like, there is so much different authority over that space. And I just, like, I guess it's a great invitation to invite young adults, like, all of us on of, like, just try it. See what the difference is when you're in those moments of, like, when you pray something aloud or when you, like even psalms, like, I will. I was in a situation a couple of weeks ago, and with someone who was really. They've had. They're in a really difficult season. And I said, oh, are you okay? If I just read it? I'm just gonna, like, let's stop talking. I'm just gonna read a psalm and just read out a psalm. And as I was reading the psalm, I could just feel, like, the presence of God shifting this atmosphere that we'd been speaking for half an hour, like, trying to work through, like, in conversation for half an hour and just reading the sum of, like, who God is and what he's done shifted something in an atmosphere that probably just sitting there in that moment wouldn't have necessarily done. So there is power on our words. We're told that, like, you know, life and death is in the tongue, that we know that. So saying that, it's also true that I think moments we see in church history different prayer practices with solitude and silence, we see contemplative prayer, we see Ignatius meditation, and a whole bunch of prayer practices that are prayer practices that don't require vocal words to be spoken. And I don't think that they're any less powerful. So I think that there are moments where. Oh, my gosh. In, like, the spiritual practice of silence and solitude. Oh, man. Has the Lord been able to minister to deep parts of me that if I was going on a prayer walk and praying in tongues wouldn't have been elevated to him? So I think that I would say that there's different you would have to go through and like, I wouldn't want to minimize saying like, hey, in this situation I would suggest this, and in this situation I would suggest this. I think that's quite reductive and, yeah, I don't, I think it would be unhelpful, but there are, I think, different situations that when you look at different prayer practices and where they were used and do a bit of a Google research and find out, like, hey, in this situation, what, like what has been used for millennia, like for like hundreds and hundreds of years and then also being led by the Holy Spirit of like today, maybe. I think that I need to intercede in tongues for an hour and the Holy Spirit's like, just come and walk with me and be quiet for a moment. Take out your airpods. Like just, just let me speak and just walk with me and just let my presence minister to you or allow the science between us to be the prayer. Yeah, that's, I know. Tom, do you have anything here? [00:28:58] Speaker C: I was only going to add, also write things down because I think within that question it's like do I say it out loud or do I not say anything at all? But I would add a third option. Do you write it down? [00:29:09] Speaker A: Totally. [00:29:09] Speaker B: That's so good. [00:29:10] Speaker C: And even like I'm reminded of something like ecclesiastes. It's almost Solomon processing his experiences with God in a place that he wasn't close to God, but it's like he's writing down these prayers and sometimes a complaint or things like that. So I think, yeah, writing things down is that kind of third option as well. [00:29:35] Speaker B: That's really good. I love that. I actually use that a lot. So I was talking to someone, they're like, I don't know what, like I don't know if I'm hearing the voice of God and there's this, and I know that's a lie and it was just a lot like profetti people. It's a lot of swirly in my head. Yeah, I hear you. I know exactly what that means. And I just said, hey, what I'd suggest is in that situation, I just said, I suggest that take a journal, take a piece of paper. I said write down. Like, I'm feeling like this is the end and I don't know where else to go from here. Okay, so that's clearly a lie, because we know that doesn't line up with the word of God. Like, he has a plan, a purpose for our lives. So there's always something, but that's the lie you're feeling right now. I said, I want you to leave, like, three lines under that, and then I want you to write the next one down. Because sometimes it's just like, it's. I don't even know what to bring to God. And I kind of circle around in my head, like, kind of with God in the conversation, but also not with God in the conversation. And so she just wrote down, like, all the. All the lies or the things that were, like, I thought that you were saying to do this, and I did this, but it didn't turn out as I was thinking. Like, were you really in it? Like, question mark. And just all of these questions, leaving a couple of lines between each one. And I said, once you've got them all on the paper, everything that's been swirling around in your head for two weeks, just all of them, until. That's it. I said, then I want you to just say, holy spirit, like, I'm listening to you come and speak truth about each one of these, and then I just want you to journal under each one what he says, like, each one, and let the truth come out. Like that. [00:31:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:31:04] Speaker B: So I love. And she did it. I was like, okay. Oh, wow. And just to get it out on paper. [00:31:08] Speaker C: Yeah. Provide something concrete. [00:31:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And it was to unscramble the spaghetti that's in your head and then to actually allow the Lord to be like, yeah, okay, I know that's a lie, but what do you say? Okay. You actually said, like, hey, this is a season where this. I've actually been doing this, this and this, and, you know. Oh, my gosh. So I think that's a great. I use that a lot. Yeah, that's a great point. [00:31:28] Speaker A: And even. Yeah, I use that, too. And I think sometimes I feel like sometimes when I journal, because I know for me, if I ever don't want to pray out loud often, it's because I'm like. But I don't feel like there's anything right now I want to pray out loud. Or, like, just being honest. Sometimes I don't know what I'm grateful for. Like, I don't know how to enter into his courts with Thanksgiving right now because life sucks and it's hard. But, I mean, you read half the psalms, and it's like, lament, lament, lament, but God, you're still good. And, God, you're still with me. And, da da da, you're my refuge. And so, like, there's been times where I've just been, like, journaling and being like, this seems horrible in my life, and, like, this thing's really hard, and I'm struggling with this, or I feel like the enemy's getting my head about this. But then, like, as I write, the Holy Spirit starts to pinpoint things and be like, oh, but actually, I want to say that over that situation. And then, like, you almost see your writing start to change. You're like, oh, but actually, I'm really thankful for this. And I'm really thankful that that person was there in that hard moment or, like, blah, blah, blah. And you get to the end and then you're like, thank you, Jesus. And then suddenly you've got this whole list of things you can be thankful for, which, yeah, I find that really helpful sometimes. So I guess, like, reframe the perspective. And I think, as well, something that I find helpful sometimes to, I guess, framework. I don't know if that's the right word to use, but just, like, just go with me kind of frame almost like, okay, God in partnership with the Holy Spirit. Like, what is required of this moment in prayer and kind of helping, like you were saying, erin, like, discerning kind of. Okay. Am I supposed to be, like, silent? Am I supposed to be quiet? Am I supposed to be praying out loud? And I think something for me, like, very practically, if I am in my head about stuff and I'm overwhelmed by situation, yep. I almost kind of, this might sound really silly, but even, like, what Dorna de Silva talks about with, like, 1st, 2nd, 3rd heaven and being like, we're not called to fight in the second heaven with the enemy. We're not actually called to be engaging in the spiritual battle. We're actually called to come higher. And sometimes that can feel really theoretical for me. Sometimes it's like, totally okay, me sitting and mulling and ruminating on the whatever I'm having in my head. Like, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm feeling like the enemy's overwhelming my mind. If you're sitting in silence being like, oh, but this. And it's like, as soon as you start actually declaring something out of your own mouth, being like, no, I'm standing on the word of God and I'm choosing to partner with God in this, and I'm choosing to raise myself up into my third heaven place with Christ Jesus at the right hand of the Father, like, it's almost like your words and your declaration are a practical representation of what you're doing in the spiritual. I don't know if that makes sense, but, yeah, I feel like sometimes we go round and round around in circles, totally sucking our own heads. Totally. Sometimes we just need to, like, let our declaration be our declaration and silence the lies of the enemy in our head by saying something out loud and letting that declaration be louder than what's happening in our head. [00:34:24] Speaker B: I think people struggle, because sometimes they feel like, that seems disingenuous. Like, oh, I'm just saying, like, what's the difference between that and, like, just, like, speaking something until it happens? And the difference is that when we declare the truth of God, so the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit's one of the roles of the Holy Spirit. There's many roles, but he acts on the. On the. On the word of God, on the truth of God. So when we speak out the truth of God in the spirit realm, it releases the Holy Spirit to come and rest upon that which is spoken, to bring about the will of God here on earth as it is in heaven. So we're not saying things of, like. And that's why we have to know our bible and know what is actually the truth to declare in a situation which is sometimes not so easy, but to come back and be like, okay, so I'm feeling hopeless. I'm feeling hopeless. I'm exhausted, and I'm feeling hopeless. Okay, so that's whirling around in my head. So what I do know that is truth is, in the book of Jeremiah, it says that there is a plan and a purpose for my life. So I can declare, Kate, I know I'm feeling hopeless, but I thank you, God, that you do have a plan and a purpose for my life. If we say something like, okay, God, but you want to make everything good, okay, what does that mean? What does good mean to you? And is that the same as we. You know, it's interesting. So we have to really, we have to be careful that we are actually declaring the truth of God, because that is what the Holy Spirit will go to work on. On. So when we do declare, those things are like, yes, Lord, you have a plan and you have purpose, and you're a good shepherd. You're like, your leadership is perfect in my life, and despite the way I feel right now, and despite what look what it looks like, I am declaring that you are my good shepherd, that your shepherding of my life is perfect, that there is no one that is more good than you. That you are. You are the very essence, and you are where all good comes from. So your leadership is good in every way in my life, whether I understand it or I don't understand it. And that you have a purpose for my life, even in the things that feel unpurposeful, that you have a purpose, God, and I'm declaring that. That you have a purpose, even for this situation that feels useless and hard and purposeless, that it has a. You have a purpose for this and that you have a plan. And that I. That by the leading of your holy spirit, by your grace and your mercy, that I am trying my best to walk in that plan. And that by your grace and your mercy, when I get off track, that you come and help shepherd me back. Because you are the good shepherd. Like the. [00:37:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:37:04] Speaker B: When you're declaring the truth, then. Then the spirit of God comes and is active on that word. Right. Because we know that the word of God doesn't return void. So I think that's the difference between being, like, we see some kind of, like, declaration spoken about in new age practices of, like, I'm going to have a ferrari by the time I'm 30. I'm. That they're the difference. Like, that's. Because sometimes that can be confusing. It's like, well, what's the difference between just declaring something that's like that and something that's biblical? [00:37:33] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. It's an origin point, right? One's coming from self, one's coming from God. And that's where you say, like, you need to know the truth in order to make sure that it's not coming from me. Yes, because then it is new agey and it is biblical and that sort of thing. And. Yeah, I think that's the key there. And it's important that we don't just know what the Bible says, but we actually know what is meaning behind that. What do I mean by that? Yeah. When you were talking about Jeremiah 20, 911, we all quote that as if we're going to get delivered from a bad experience. Except Jeremiah was speaking to exiles in Babylon who were not delivered from Babylon, but it was actually to them of, no, no, you're there for a reason. God sent you there. Take heart in that. It is in God's plan. And so that's. Yeah, more about bringing hope to the hopeless, not delivering someone from evil. So. Because it was God's plan. So I think that's. It's not just all the Bible says this. It's like, yeah, but what does that actually mean. [00:38:40] Speaker B: Yeah, because it can be so easy to. That's what I was saying. Sometimes you don't even. You have to be okay, God. What? Do I actually have to pray? [00:38:47] Speaker C: Yes. [00:38:47] Speaker B: Because sometimes I found myself praying, like, deliver me from this situation that might. [00:38:52] Speaker C: Not be his intent. [00:38:53] Speaker B: And sometimes as I'm praying, I just get this feeling, like, oh, like, I don't feel you. Pray, Lord. Like, I don't feel you. [00:39:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:03] Speaker B: Oh, hang on a second. Let me look at this. Okay. Show me how you're saying this. Yeah, like, show me how you're saying this. [00:39:08] Speaker A: That's a good thing to pray as well. [00:39:09] Speaker B: Yeah, because I'm like, oh, actually, he's like, oh, look how I've done this. And you. Look what I'm doing here. Look what I'm doing here. Look what I'm doing here. You're like, okay, that's. This is not easy, but. But I can see the plan and the purpose that you have in it and that in this valley, you are forging me in a way that I wouldn't be forged on a mountaintop. And I'm going to be able to see and experience Christ in a way here in this valley that I don't see and experience you on a mountaintop. So the. Yes. The heart and the intention and the understanding of the ways of the Lord that come from reading the full counsel of God is very important to, I guess, having an effective prayer life and to even understanding and knowing what to pray. [00:39:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:00] Speaker B: And the great thing is, that's all a journey. [00:40:02] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. [00:40:03] Speaker B: No one has arrived. I most certainly haven't arrived. And it happens all the time. I'll start praying in one place and, like, don't feel like you have to know. Like, don't not pray because you're not sure of what to pray. Just pray and be open to his guiding and his leading, because often where I start is definitely not where I end anything. So. Yeah, don't feel like it's like, oh, gosh, well, I don't even know where to start. Just start somewhere. Be open. The Holy Spirit's role is to be the counselor, the teacher. Like, he will lead you. He will show you. He will guide you. [00:40:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:33] Speaker A: So, good. Let's change gears a little bit. Awesome talk about biblical interpretation. We got to hear some really great episodes from Tom and Sam about this topic. And, Erin, really keen to hear your thoughts on some of these questions as well. I feel like the place I want to start, we had a question come through that says, what should my first response be when I come across a biblical interpretation challenge that I don't know how to overcome. [00:41:01] Speaker B: Wow. [00:41:03] Speaker C: Yeah. First response. That's an interesting. I don't know if there's a definitive first response. I think it depends in what. [00:41:13] Speaker A: Don't give up. [00:41:15] Speaker C: Yeah. And if anything, I'd say the first response is, okay, where's Jesus in this? Because the counsel of scripture is the revelation of. Is the self revelation of God himself. It's God revealing himself through scripture. So where it's like, again, it depends on the challenge. If it's like, oh, I don't know if I agree with that or I don't understand that, it's okay. But God, you're revealing yourself in this. So where are you in this? That's a good question. I would say to start with the other response that I think should be a first response, but is a bit of a loss response at the moment is go to community. And we touched on this in one of our episodes with biblical interpretation around what is the Bible and what's the purpose of the Bible. And it's really only been the last couple of hundred years, not even that. Yeah, maybe 150 years that we've had our own bibles and that scripture was a communal pursuit. And that's why it's written the way it's written. That's why it is. What it is is because it was always meant to be and intended to be wrestled with in community. And often, when you look at the history of the early church, a lot of the heresies about Jesus and the false teachings about Jesus were made from people that were isolated from the rest of the church community. It's very easy to come up with something that's not biblical when you're isolated from people. So, yeah, if you're having a challenging thing with scripture, get with other people. Maybe the Lord's spoken to them about that. Maybe they just have some more resource that you don't have. Maybe they have a bit of history with the Lord that they can share with you. But I think not being a lawyer unto herself, not thinking that you have to find your way through scripture alone, because scripture was never intended. It was always written for community. It was written by community. Yeah, that would be my first. God, where are you in this? And help. Someone help. [00:43:22] Speaker A: That's good. Erin, did you have anything you wanted to add on that? [00:43:25] Speaker B: I just think to know that wrestles with scripture are totally normal as part of our faith journey. Totally normal, I think, yeah. So that doesn't make like, I think there would be like, the enemy would love to make us feel like, oh, like we're a lesser than. Because we're wrestling with scripture. Oh, my gosh. Like, I have some pretty huge theological wrestles that I'm wrestling through right now. Like, major ones of like, oh, man, I don't know. Like, is it that or is it this? And there's this camp of, like, thoughts on this part and there's this camp of thought on this part and, okay, that's interesting. And where does that come from? So I would say, like, find who are trusted voices of wisdom in your life, multiple trusted voices of wisdom and who can do that journey with you? Because I think as you press in, that's totally will be a good part of what comes up. Like, we're meant to wrestle over things of, like, you know, why does God heal one person and not heal another person? And, you know, why is there this over here and that over there? And why do one. I mean, we're just talking before the podcast about, like, communion and, like, transubstantiation and like, oh, why this sort? And there's this sort. And I would just say, like, it's a very normal part of our journey and a needed part of our journey. I think if you're going at any level of depth in scripture, you're gonna have questions and you're gonna wrestle over stuff. The beautiful thing when I was wrestling over something with the Lord a couple of years ago that he showed me was, I said to him, I'm really wrestling with you in this. God, I feel like we are headlocked. We have each other in a headlock. That was the image of these Olympic wrestling on the floor. And the Lord said, yeah, that's great. He said, because it's body to body contact. And he was saying to me, he's like, I. He's like, we are in the wrestle, we're together. He's like, just don't run away. Just don't leave and exit. He's like, keep the wrestle is like that. You've used the perfect word. Because I know that in that wrestle is actually where some of the best gold, I think, has come from in my life of things I've wrestled with. And sometimes something happens, sometimes, sorry, sometimes a couple of things happen. So I wrestle it to the point of, like, a conclusion of, oh, okay. Yep, okay. That makes sense. Like, I have something that I feel like theologically sits, or sometimes I'm like, oh, wow, there's really a plethora of ways to think about this. And here's all the different ways that, over time have been thought about in this space. And I think with that, you just get. Yeah, you can actually see the beauty of Jesus in a. In different ways and spaces and forms, or there's been a surrendering in me to something to allow truth to come. [00:46:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:28] Speaker B: So, like, if you stay in the wrestle, eventually the wrestle wrestles out. [00:46:32] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:46:33] Speaker B: But if you exit in that moment and like, oh, we've had a wrestle, and now I'm like. I'm piecing out, like, I'm done. I think I would have missed a lot of, I think, depth and gold that God wanted to reveal to me or do in me if I had now actually done that. [00:46:55] Speaker C: Can I maybe jump in with what not to do? Can you throw one in? [00:47:01] Speaker A: Don't jump to commentaries too quickly. Distinguishing the difference between study commentaries and, like, I guess, context and people who can help you understand context, that can help you draw more out of scripture versus commentaries that are, like, jumping to the conclusion about what exactly that scripture is telling you, because you always find. [00:47:25] Speaker B: Commentaries say one thing and comment something else. Yeah. [00:47:28] Speaker A: Cause I think my concern with that is that if we jump to trying to find the answer too quickly, we miss that WrestleMania. And you also, sometimes it's kind of like, if the only time you ever feed yourself is on a Sunday at church, you're only ever hearing someone else's interpretation and revelation of that scripture, not allowing God to speak to you in the interpretation and revelation for yourself. So being able to. And maybe, Tom, you can add a few once you share what is on your heart. Like some practical, like, what are some good commentaries to go to? What are some good tools that we can actually know where to go to so that we're not falling into that trap of, I guess, like, going to those, I guess, conclusionary commentaries too quickly. [00:48:10] Speaker B: Because we want to have a right and a wrong. Like, we live in a. We live in a world in a western context of this is the right way and this is the wrong way. And that's like, we are going to constantly find layers of opposition. [00:48:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:24] Speaker B: We have to try and approach the ways of Jesus in more of an eastern context. [00:48:31] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, totally. [00:48:32] Speaker B: To not rob ourselves of the fullness. [00:48:36] Speaker C: Yeah. Scriptures are forming. It's wisdom literature. It's not a textbook. And that's something Sam and I spoke about a fair bit was it's not a textbook. We would love for it to be a textbook. [00:48:47] Speaker B: We would. [00:48:48] Speaker C: But it's not the way that a lot of hebrew scholars put it is it's wisdom literature. It's meant to teach you wisdom so you can then actually go away and apply it, like, and not just tell you this is what you do in this situation because it's Babylon. [00:49:04] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like that whole concept, right? We get free, like it is for freedom. And then we're like, yeah, but can someone please just tell us what to do? [00:49:12] Speaker C: Tell her what to do. Yeah, exactly. Right? Yeah. All I was going to add was, when you're wrestling, don't throw away everything else. I think I watch people, as soon as they start wrestling with something about God or something about scripture, they start to unravel everything they already knew to be true about God because, oh, I'm not sure about that. So I'm going to question everything else, which questioning everything is fine, but it's like, don't question your experiences that you've had with God that you've already tried and tested that you know is true. And don't throw away the Bible as being truthful just because you disagree on one thing the Bible says and you're wrestling with that. Because I think sometimes we're like, oh, I wrestle with that in scripture. So the rest of it, it doesn't matter. It's like, if it's strong enough for my salvation, I think we can get through it. [00:50:00] Speaker B: That's good, Tom. And I think life is long. And you know what? I thought about something, or like the point of revelation that I had about something last year, and the point of revelation I have twelve months about same thing. It's like ever growing. I mean, Shane Willard said once when he came and ministered here, he's like, yeah, because we're talking about, he spoke about something that he, a revelation that he had received about some point of scripture that he had previously taught on in a completely different way. And he was like, I have to be that. That's part of it. He's like, I'm gonna teach stuff that five years later I'm like, hey, guys, I taught on this, but actually, like, now I've learned dirt, dirt, dirt, dirt, dirt. And it's, and he said, and if I can't be okay with that, like, I'm never going to grow and learn. So I think just be really, it's, we, yeah, it's so contrary to our worldly way. Like, there's a right and a wrong. This is the, this is the thing. And we put a stake in the ground and just think back over your own journey. Like, even think about what you knew when in the first, like six months of being saved. Then what did you know in the next? Then what did you know in the next? So revelation, I mean, the knowledge of God wowzes like the ways of God. Like that will be a forever for all of our life. An unfolding ocean that we are swimming in. [00:51:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:26] Speaker B: That if we could understand God, we would be God. Like we literally, by the definition of God, we cannot fully understand him. So that puts us in a position of, we will always be learners. So what you even, I guess, the depth or the component of revelation that you have today will be something that will be unfolding, built on, strengthened, widened as you continue to walk with him. [00:51:59] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:52:00] Speaker C: And that's the way scripture works. So. Especially the Old Testament. The Old Testament is progressive, where the God, it almost seems like the God they knew in Genesis is different to the God they know in Samuel. It's like, well, no, no, they just know more about him. They've had more time to learn about him. So it's the same way in our relationship with the Lord. We have this progressive history with God. And sometimes it's just that it's not that what we knew was wrong. Maybe it was just incomplete, which is probably right about everything. Probably most of what we know about God is right. It's just incomplete because we're human. [00:52:38] Speaker B: Yeah. So true. [00:52:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Did you want me to throw out maybe some resources? [00:52:42] Speaker A: Yeah, might be helpful. Just one final note, going back to the thing about community. I love life group. You're not a life group. Get in a flippin life group. Because, like, literally our life group is just, we sit around and like, we have studies and they're amazing. But the way we kind of go about it is we literally open our scriptures and we're like, cool. All right, what's everyone getting out of the scripture? And then it ends up being like an hour and a half conversation being like, oh, but what about this? And what about that? But I mean, my thought before that is, don't feel discouraged or ashamed or whatever. If you read description, you don't get anything out of it because, like, what Aaron said and like, what Thomas said, it's meant to grow over time, and your revelation will grow over time. Literally. Like, there's been times where I've been reading, I don't know, especially in the Old Testament when you're like reading through Leviticus and it's like, leviticus one three, I'll still write it in my journal and it'll just be like, question mark. I didn't get anything out of that today. But even in life group the other week, we were talking about prayer and fasting, and we were talking about the scripture where essentially the Pharisees and John's disciples are asking Jesus, why are your disciples not fasting? And he talks about the bridegroom at the wedding, and they don't fast until the bridegroom leaves. And then it starts talking about, you don't put new wine and old wineskin and da da da. I have never understood that scripture. I was always like, why are they talking about fasting? And then they talk about new wine and old wineskins. I feel like that's how we use the scripture in church. And like, da da da. And then we literally sat around and talked about that scripture. And by the end, I was like, oh, that makes so much sense. And so it's like this, you know, hypothetical gap in my journal for probably years where I'm like, I read that scripture and I'm like, I don't understand why that says that. Then we got in community, we talked about it, and I'm like, oh. And it's like, now my revelation's built off that. So, yeah, don't be discouraged by it, especially if you're in the Old Testament. Just read it and accept it and say, God, I don't fully understand this, but I know you'll reveal it to me in your time, because it's also like, sometimes we read scripture and it's not. We read it in our faithfulness to God, but it's not always the rhema word for us right now. And so it's like you could read something now and it makes no sense. And you could read something in a new season in your life and go, ah, that's why that's in the Bible. [00:54:59] Speaker B: Totally. [00:54:59] Speaker A: That's why God said that. And it's like you're reading it for the first time. So, yeah. Do you want to maybe chuck out some research? [00:55:06] Speaker C: I won't say anything like, get this book or that book. Actually, I will say one. One book. And the reason I say this book is it doesn't. It's not going to give you conclusions, but it's just really, really helpful for how to think about scripture. It's called how to read the Bible for all it's worth. Great, great book. You could read it front to back, or you can just use it as a resource. It's great. Just, it's like, how do I approach psalms? I've never read psalms before. How do I approach the gospels? That sort of thing. It's a great book that I recommend to everyone, but apart from another really. [00:55:36] Speaker A: Important thing as well, is not all scripture has the same purpose. Yeah, maybe we'll talk about that at. [00:55:41] Speaker C: Another point, maybe another time. We'll be here forever otherwise. But other than that, if I highly recommend biblical encyclopedias more than commentaries because they're going to tell you about something rather than a conclusion or an interpretation. So they're going to be able to tell you about the location. They are. Rather than saying the location means this, they'll just tell you about it and the Holy Spirit can speak to you through that context. So encyclopedias over commentaries, be aware when looking at dictionaries like biblical dictionaries and that sort of thing, that that word, yes, has all of those meanings, but it doesn't have all those meanings at all the time. So meaning don't just pick that word. [00:56:27] Speaker A: And apply it into that scripture. [00:56:28] Speaker C: Meaning is always context relevant. So yeah, so yes, look up the root word to help you, but it won't necessarily mean all those things in that scripture that you're looking at. And then if you are into commentaries, which are very helpful, find a commentary that will present multiple sides of the argument. [00:56:47] Speaker B: Very good. [00:56:49] Speaker C: Because why are there so many denominations? Because we all disagree, but we all agree on Jesus and that's the important thing. So find a commentary because there's things. [00:56:59] Speaker A: That actually need to be discussed and. [00:57:00] Speaker C: Talked about and find a good commentary that's going to present all those sorts of things and that's going to help you wrestle rather than go, rather than just say, this is the way it is, which is, that's kind of my advice around those things, which it's hard if all you're having access to is free resources. When you're be very careful of Google. I'd say like if you're wanting a free resource, blue there Bible is probably the best free resource that is out there. But Google's hard because you don't know who that person is, what's their background, that sort of thing. I'm on backgrounds. Don't be scared of someone that's not pentecostal. It was actually only until really this year, actually maybe a year or two ago that a pentecostal systematic theology was published. [00:57:49] Speaker B: Wow. [00:57:50] Speaker C: So that was the first one actually published, which tells you there's a whole bunch more. [00:57:56] Speaker B: I'm going through James at the moment and the lady who's teaching it is from the baptist church and it's, and. [00:58:02] Speaker C: There'S great reformed theology, there's great catholic theology. Let's actually let's let the body do what the body does. [00:58:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Another good one is the Bible project. [00:58:14] Speaker C: Bible projects, great. [00:58:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. [00:58:15] Speaker C: Because summaries and things. [00:58:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Especially if you're a visual learner or an audio learner. Because they do. Yes, they do really great. Like recaps and things like that. Yeah. But also you can go and listen to their podcast, which often, often their podcast is them talking about all the data or they do the video. So the video will be like five minutes long and the podcast will be like 3 hours long because they just talk about all different sides and all the different. So if you're interested in, I guess, hearing people chat about particular scriptures or themes, and often they'll do like they'll either study a book, like they'll study genesis, or they'll study themes like holy spiritual themes or blah, blah, blah. So that's really helpful one, too. [00:58:58] Speaker C: Last thing I'll quickly say is, you don't have to agree with someone just because they have a degree, like use it as information process, holy spirit. But, yeah, don't just take it like, oh, this person has all this study, so I'm gonna agree with them. Don't diminish their study. But, yeah, they don't, they're not the final word. The final word is the resurrected Christ. [00:59:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:22] Speaker C: So, yeah. [00:59:24] Speaker A: Do we have time for one more question? [00:59:26] Speaker C: Sure, why not? [00:59:27] Speaker A: How far in are we? [00:59:28] Speaker C: An hour? [00:59:29] Speaker A: Oh my God. Do the people want one more question? You know what? You can fuck off now if you want. I think we're going to ask one more question because I think this is a good question because it's one that I also ask as well. This is going to the topic of biblical tension, which we've kind of chatted about a little bit as well today, because it's always going to come up, because it's always a thing. And obviously in that episode, Tom and I, we spoke about, I guess, holding things in tension. But the question that we have to talk about today is, are there times that tensions will swing one way or the other? And how do we hear the Holy Spirit's leading in which side of the tension to lean into? So, for example, you know, the fear of God and grace of God. [01:00:17] Speaker B: Right. [01:00:17] Speaker A: Are there sometimes that we need to lean more into the grace of God than the fear of God or more into the fear of God than the grace of God? [01:00:24] Speaker B: Are we talking individually or are you talking about individually? [01:00:27] Speaker C: I think, yeah, I think that's, that's a key distinction. [01:00:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:30] Speaker C: Because I think corporately if we're leaning one way too long, it gets weird. [01:00:34] Speaker A: And I think that's when the pendulum swings. [01:00:36] Speaker B: I think there's a lot of church history where you watch, like, if you look over church history, you will see many things of the swinging. Like, if you look at the great reformations that, like, we've gone through centuries of something, and then there's been, like, almost like a church reformation, and then the pendulum has swung the opposite way. Yeah, the opposite way. And then it's like something else comes and it swings back somewhere else. So I think if you study church history, you can see a lot of the hand of God, even just like, okay, it's moved here, and then we're moving here, and then we're coming back here with, yeah, I guess, key doctrinal points and things like that. So I think if you're looking as the body of Christ, and I don't just mean pentecostal, I mean, like the wider body of Christ, there's definitely. You can see some of those movements, but if you're talking personally, I think that's. [01:01:24] Speaker C: Yeah, and some of those movements are God, but then we take it too far sometimes. Yeah, but I think. Yeah, and we've finished that episode talking about, I guess, the pictures that we have in mind when we talk about tension. And one of the main ones is that pendulum swing, which is not a helpful picture because it means it can only be one thing at one time, whereas biblical tension is. No, no. God is this and this at the same time, even if it stuffs with your head, even if it sounds like it's a paradox. So, yes. [01:01:54] Speaker A: The better picture is probably the two ends of the slack rope. [01:01:57] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:01:59] Speaker A: You need tension on both sides to actually keep the rope up. [01:02:01] Speaker C: Yeah. And the other one that we spoke about was a sailboat. [01:02:05] Speaker A: Yes. [01:02:06] Speaker C: The sail needs to be held at tension to catch the wind, and the wind, if we want to go that analogy is the Holy Spirit. So in order to actually be directed adequately by Holy Spirit, we need to hold these things in tension. [01:02:22] Speaker B: Beautiful. [01:02:23] Speaker C: So I think, do we major on one side of that tension more than others in a season? I think maybe the best word to use is focus. Maybe you understand the fear of God. Really? Really. Well, that doesn't mean the fear of God goes away or you don't need to be aware of it. But God might be bringing into focus his mercy. Now, the tension's still existing. It's still there. It's like. It's like a lens on a camera, just because one item in the frame is not in focus. It doesn't mean it's no longer there. It's just I'm focusing on that right now because you need to learn about that right now. But the other one hasn't gone away, so I don't think the tension ever goes. And when we remove the tension, we lose an aspect of God. We get a bit weird. It's the truth. We get a bit weird and we hurt people and do all those bad things. So I think tension is there because we can't understand a whole God without it. Just because focus might shift in a season doesn't mean the tension goes away. Do you have anything to say? [01:03:41] Speaker B: I think you said it so well, Tom. I think the life of faith is a life of tension. [01:03:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:03:47] Speaker B: And we see tension as a bad thing. And I don't think the Lord does. I think it keeps me humble, it keeps me on my knees, it keeps me honoring the God in others, and it keeps God in his place of, like, I don't know, everything. I'm not God. He is. So I think I've, you know, some tensions are to fix and some are to manage. I think the life of faith is, is one of multiple tensions. And in fact, if I don't feel a lot of tension, I sometimes, like, oh, hang on a second. Like, have I surrounded myself in some bubble of, like, I'm only listening to something that, you know, I'm only listening to voices that agree with me, or, like, hang on a sec. Like, I genuinely get a bit worried when there's, like, zero tension in things. And I think sometimes we've experienced tension only in a negative sense, whereas, like, I've had many wonderful conversations of, like, and you're right. Even just with, like, I'm going to use an example with gifting, but there's many examples. So, like, I think the tensions that are existing between different areas of, like, okay, so I, as, as a prophetic person, I need to make sure that I can feel a pastoral tension. [01:05:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:18] Speaker B: Because otherwise I'm gonna make everything just about God. And he says, love the Lord your God and love others. So, like, attention that I need to be making sure that I'm always in touch with is the pastoral one that I, I cannot actually fully love God unless I love others like that. That's paradoxical. So I need to make sure that if there's attention there, it's actually an honorable one. And, like, oh, hang on a second. That means I've gone a bit far one way. Like, I need to lean back. And the same with, like, the teaching grace. Like, I'm always very aware of. There's going to be some graces in my life that are. That are represented in my life, often as friends. Yeah. And, like, I was just talking to a friend last night, and I was like, oh, that's so good. I'm feeling attention inside of me. Like, I was just saying this, and I'm like, that's. That's good. That's God, like, his invitation to lean back into this teaching grace in this space. And so that the prophetic grace is always to be, like, grounded in the word of God. But the thing is, if I'm not allowing the tension with the friends of mine who are representing that in my life, then it does have the potential to become, like, unhinged and, like, weird and, like, off the chain and not in a good way. So there are tensions, I think, or, like, even authority figures, like, okay, great. There's going to sometimes be attention here, and that's good because, yes, I need to be able to move forward in some ways, but I. There's. There also needs to be honor, so I need to be able to feel attention sometimes in those spaces. So I think tension is really part of the christian life, and we, I would, like, be encouraging people to start to see those things as, like, invitations from God to something for something, rather than, like, oh, I've got attention here. And, like, I'm always like, oh, wow, what's happening in me that I'm feeling this tension? There's often something that God wants to say to me in that. [01:07:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:07:16] Speaker B: So I would. Yeah, I get a little bit, like, oh, hang on a second. When I am not feeling any tensions. [01:07:23] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:07:24] Speaker B: Like, hang on. Have I, like, cut loose and I'm on some other, like, pathway, or have I put myself in a bubble where it's like I've just surrounded myself by voices that are the same as mine. [01:07:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:34] Speaker B: So I'm actually constantly, like, looking sometimes for tensions. Yeah, yeah. [01:07:39] Speaker C: Keeps us. I think it does keep. It keeps. I said this in the episode. It keeps us in the will of God. [01:07:45] Speaker B: Yes. [01:07:45] Speaker C: Because otherwise, we go one way too far. And I think if in a season you're feeling as though one characteristic or one facet of God is in focus, it's probably because in the previous season, you went too far the other direction. So to answer the question of, like, in different seasons are different, do we go one side of the tension the other? I'd say not unless God is trying to correct us, as in pull us back into alignment with something that was meant to be held in tension the whole time. And that is that history where sometimes we've gone too far one way as a body. So God's like, okay, let's come this way. And then we keep going. [01:08:27] Speaker B: It's great because, like, previous season, I felt like the Lord was teaching me a lot about self compassion. So grace was a really big narrative, like, a really big in focus point between God and I in that season because I come out of a season of a lot of shame and condemnation. So I come out of season a lot of shame and condemnation, which the Lord had healed me from and freed me from. I went into this season of, like, just the compassion of God and the grace of God and receiving that first for myself and then being able to minister that to friends, family, like, all the things. And I don't mean ministry in, like, the sense of, like, church ministry. I mean, like, just genuinely expressing that for people who don't even know him. But, like, so mercy and. But I think I was very aware that that was a season that I was in because God was correcting something. [01:09:12] Speaker C: Exactly. Yes. [01:09:14] Speaker B: So I was also not coming to every conversation being like, oh, but we've just got to show the mercy of God. I knew that that was actually a really big highlight in my life. And so I needed to be aware that when I was stepping into other conversations that I shouldn't. If someone was suggesting another way or something else or another approach, I wasn't to dismiss that because God was focusing because it didn't show the amount of grace that I was currently working with the Lord. [01:09:41] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. [01:09:43] Speaker B: And then I came out of that season and the Lord was like, I want to talk to you about the one percenters and, like, having a really disciplined life in the Lord. And I was like, huh, that makes sense. Like, it's. There's. Yes, there's grace. And now we're going to focus on. Okay, but there's also beauty in the discipline. [01:09:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:09:59] Speaker B: And. And the discipline of the Lord. Great. Okay, so now this is coming into focus. [01:10:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:10:04] Speaker B: So I'm not going to then be like, oh, everyone, like, we need to be more disciplined. Like, I think self awareness is really important of understanding your. The narrative of, like, what God is doing in your life on. On a much longer scale of things. And you can even draw a timeline. Like, an exercise we do with Doctor Wang was like, draw a timeline and actually, like, look at the years, like, okay, these three years, these two years, and mark out, like, what actually has been your history with the Lord, because you can see these things, and if you're self aware, you understand that, like, okay, this is a really huge narrative with me, but when I'm dealing with my sister who's behaving, like, badly at the moment, and I want to, like, kind of come alongside her as a sister, maybe the discipline narrative or maybe the grace narrative is not what the Lord's doing to her just because it's happening to me. So I need to go and seek the Lord on, like, what? Not just think that because this pendulum is swinging in my life, that's. That's what the Lord's saying everywhere. [01:10:57] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And that's that focus versus. Yeah, the tension. Tension never goes away. The focus just shifts on what the Lord's doing in our lives. So. Yeah, yeah. [01:11:05] Speaker B: Good. [01:11:05] Speaker C: Great topic. Can forever talk about it, but we should probably stop there. [01:11:10] Speaker A: The final thing I would just add as well, which I think is maybe helpful to capture some of the things we're saying as well, is, like, I never see it as pendulum swinging, but almost, like, building. And, like, even coming back to what we talked about right at the beginning with, like, knowing God, it's like, well, God has so many facets to who he is, and it's so many different, I guess, like, things we get to learn about who he is and his nature and what that means in our lives. And so even that example of your life, Erin, like, you didn't come out of the gray season into the discipline season and forget about the gray season. [01:11:42] Speaker B: Yes. [01:11:43] Speaker A: It's like you needed the gray season first to then be able to rightly approach the discipline season. [01:11:48] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. [01:11:49] Speaker A: So. Well, because it's like, God's, like, I have so much grace for you and love for you and mercy and compassion, but I also want to teach you how to live a life of discipline. [01:11:57] Speaker B: And so I'm not taking the discipline in a condemning way. I'm taking it in, like, a merciful way. [01:12:01] Speaker A: Yeah, because he's already taught you that. So good. So. Because if you swung, you'd be, like, all discipline, no grace, so good. Cats, no build. [01:12:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:12:10] Speaker A: Build on the knowing. [01:12:11] Speaker B: So good. [01:12:12] Speaker A: Grow in the knowing. [01:12:12] Speaker C: He doesn't stop being something. [01:12:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:15] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. So good. [01:12:19] Speaker A: We should wrap it up. [01:12:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:12:21] Speaker A: If you stuck it out this long. Well praised. I pray it has blessed you. But seriously, thank you. Thank you, Erin, and thank you, Thomas, for joining us. [01:12:32] Speaker C: Thank you, Kelsey. [01:12:33] Speaker A: And thank you to the wonderful listener for listening. We pray this season has blessed you. We pray that you're walking away with something new in your toolkit, in the way that you do life with Jesus. We pray that it's maybe taken the scales off your eyes in some respects, of different things that maybe you thought you knew something about, but you've learned something new, and it's changed your revelation. We pray that it's drawn you closer to Jesus in some way. We're really excited to be back for season two. We've already got some ideas brewing of what we want to talk about there, but as always, we want to hear your feedback. If you do have any more questions, you're always welcome to email us or send them through on instagram. Our line is always open for your questions because we always want to be helping you guys grow closer to Jesus, but otherwise, that is the end of season one. Thank you for joining us, and we will speak to you soon.